the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

[lgskywalker37]

Lateral movement provides no extra distance it is rotation.

in itself no..... but as crocker says "Coming into the ball, you should feel that your body makes no motion forward but only provides something to push against and out from. " http://www.crokergolf.com/golfdigestarticle1.htm

and lateral movement can help achieve a more stable front leg to push against and out from.

my theory is that you have two ways to achieve maximum force on weight shift.....lateral movement (i will call this thy method) and using the thighs to push against (like jumping) which (to some extent) is greater the wider your stance gets and your knee travels in a lateral movement and resticts BS hip rotation a bit...... or flaring the feet (i will call calf method) and using the foot as a lever to push againt and using the calf muscles and that allows you to have a more narrow stance but still get a forcefull shift and your kneed travel in a rotory motion (also involvs rolling of the ancles as i have heard many pro's say he do with the front foot). now granted you use both muscles in both methods, but one is more dominant in one method thatn in the other. you can combine both, but that limits you hip turn and i think hurts more that it helps is you were to have a wide stance with foot flare. but i think using the calf method for the front foot and calf method for back is most benificial (depending on the shape of your knees) but if you have knee toubles you can to calf method on front and thy method for the back. but the calf method is far more superior IMO with the front foot than the thy method which i can't even remember seeing any pros use the thy method with the front foot this as it would restrict hip turn in the DS quit a bit. i have seen more pro's use the calf method than the thy method with the back foot/leg also. i would say i see many more amaturers use the thy method becaue of the advice (which i have given before because of lack of education) of puttnig a golf ball under the outside of back foot to get rid of sliding. to get rid of sliding you just have to make sure that you don't let your weight get out side you foot. that can be done by widening stance or by flaring the foot more (having a big foot with strong calfs helps) to make sure you keep you weight inside your feet.

yes lateral movement past the front foot is a power leak. and the reason sliding in the back is bad is only becaue it makes a forcfull weight shift foward harder to do.

here is a test. stand with feer together and swing, you will find that your can only hit so far becuae it is harder to push against back leg to move weight back into your front leg for you to push against.

now you can do two differnt things...... you can get a wider stance....or flare both feet. *only do this if you are flexible and know you won't hurt your knees* (depending on how strong you calfes are depends on how stronf your foot lever is) stand with heels together and flare feet out 45 deg each so that there is 90 deg in between. now make a golf swing, you will find you can swing a lot faster than when they are togother becuae you are using you feet as leverage to get a forcefull weight shift and a stonger base to swing against. having a wide stance does the same thing....

you can try a few differnt combos. the further you flare you feet (front foot flare restricts BS hip turn and back foot flare resreicts DS hip turn, the less of a hip turn which also means shoulder turn that you are able to get. also the wider the stance you have, the less hip turn you get (equally BS and DS resriction). but the more flared your feet are (to about 45 deg) the more of a lever you have to push against and make a weight transfer more forcefull. and the wider your stance the more you can push against.

that is why they say it is disireable to have a front foot flare. the front leg/foot is the brace and is the ultimate goal here. it does no good to have the back foot flared and be able to push against it in the BS and into the DS if you don't have the front foot flared and nothing to push against... that actauly weakens the base. just like it would do no good to jump off of a 6 foot box and then try to jump after that....you are putting to much weight downward and you are not strong enough to comensate and push upward and won't go ery high) just like in the golf swing if you have back flared and front not. the wideness of the stance is used to enable you to get weight on your back foot to push agaist to achieve th final goal to have your front foot flared to give you a stong base. i think that the leverage of most people feet(calf strenght) can produce more force than just pushnig off of the inside of a wide stance. but you can't have both feet flared (especially the back foot beaue that resticts DS hip turn which is very forcefull and very bad for knees unless you allow that knee to turn in and the pivot off of the inside of the big toe to releve that knee pressure and hip turn restiction on the DS).


when you are at the top of you BS i have heard pro's say that you can push of the inside of you back foot to have a more forceful weight shift foward. thoose are the ones that have thier back knee go it on the BS. there are ones that have thier weight on the outside of their back foot and have their knees facing out (you can have back foot flare then but ***make sure you bring your knee in and pivot off of the inside of the big toe on the DS to releive pressure on the back knee*** if you do choose to have back foot flare), they are both the same thing. i think you can actaully get a more forcefull weight shift with knees out and weight on outside and feet flared a bit like a lever. (but can be very hard on your knees if you dont let the back knee face in and foot turn around and in) doesn't matter how you do it, you just want to get pushing power in you DS via forcefull weight shift. but i think everyone will agree that the calf method is better in the front foot. the back foot method s personal prefence based on athletic ability.

jumping.... bend your knees and wiat for a few seconds....then jump. you won't get very high. now stand strait up and then let gravity pull you down, then jump like bouncing (there is term for that bouncing buti can't think of it, if there are any coneseioligist out there...)...you get much higher (if you have the strenght) now run and jump...you get even higher.... gravity can onlt pull so hard... when you run and jump, right tbefore you jump you stop and bend down and you are forcing all that lateral weight movement to force you down harder then gravity can, then you push against that greater force than graivty (gravity plus the forward momenum forced down) to jump even higher. (again if you have the muscle) same thing as jumping an inch of so to and then jumping....that first jump i sonly to add a stronger force down to push against o nt ehway back up.

golf swing is the same thing..... the only reason you shift weight backwards is to be use that dynimic bouncing to help you be able to push that weight back forward.... and the only reason you want to be able to forcefully push that weight back forward is so that you can (as crokcer says) use your front leg to push againt and out from. that is where golf shoes help out.

all this is limited by leg strength.....

now back to lateral movement. to an extent having a wider stance gives us greater lateral movement which we can force down and into the front leg to push againt. but we never want to move lateraly more than the back leg in the BS and the front leg in the DS.


if you could tie a rope around your waist and tie that off behind you in your BS the rope will lack a bit... and in the DS push off of your back foot/leg foward as hard as you can and that rope will taught on you in the DS and you arms will go fast thus eliminating the need for you front leg.

that is all your legs do push you weight laterally from side to side to make a more dynamic bouncing motion to have a stonger base to swing against at impact like jach siad.

"Big legs are the source of power. I've been asked how the legs contribute to power, because they aren't touching the club. The answer is, sturdy legs give you stability, which in turn allows you to swing your arms faster." Jack Nicklaus




all that being said now we know the role of the legs, and how to make them stronger (not stronger as in muscluar strenght but stronger as in a stronger base) through dynamic bouncing ot lateral movement of weight (lateral movment of body is only used when using the thigh method and could lead to inacuracies which is why i prefer the calf method) and that the more forefull that movement is the stronger base you wil have. Unless you flare the feet (to transfer weight through leverage), you will need lateral movement or "sliding" and a wide stance to shift the weight. just make sure you when "slide" that you don't let your weight get out side your feet.


but the rotary movement will give you much more power (for begginers), but if you are looking to get everything out of the swing you can, a stong base is a must (and a stong base is only achieved through a forcefull weight shift.) like jumping high is only achieved through a forcing as much weight as you can down and then "bouncing" against that.

i have never read the calf vs the thy method anywhere so i think this is an origonal theory through research of mine. but someone could have though this up before me.... i just never heard of it.

i am up for a dicussion on this...... anyone thougths on it?

[pnearn]

Re: the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

Great Post

Personally and simply if I dont feel any coil up the inside of my right leg on my BS I know my legs have 'buckled'. Caused perhaps by a slide, over rotation of the hips, right knee straightening or whatever

If I have that tension built up in my right leg my lower body will naturally spring off it in the DS and my weight will get back to my left side. If not I pivot back around my right leg and pull/slice. There is in natural spring to get me back left. The problem I think many people have is they know they should get on that left side on the DS so they try and force that movement via some big lateral slide. Then they go way past the left leg usually with a wide open clubface

The thing to realise ( for me anyway) is if you build that resistance in the inside of the right leg and right knee and just turn your core(sternum) back through the ball then your lower body will get on the left leg (and post it up) naturally .. all by itself .. magically! This is why people say the DS just happens if they've coiled up right. Stable lower body, tension in the inside of the right leg and then just turn your upper body back through the ball

When that tension is there, the lower body has to move faster than the upper body

So the legs ... they need to be stable to allow that coil and I think people have to experiment with setups, stance width, feet positions etc to find their optimal stable position. This will of course differ with flexibility, strength, height etc but the key must be to feel that pinch in the inside of the right leg to allow your right foot to push off it naturally

[lgskywalker37]

Re: the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

problem I think many people have is they know they should get on that left side on the DS so they try and force that movement via some big lateral slide. Then they go way past the left leg usually with a wide open clubface

exactly..... that is like juming off a 10 foot box and tying to jump....too much of a push forward is limited by strength to push backward (having a stong base to push against) just as jumpng too high puts too much weight dowward and limits the upward push of the jump.

This is why people say the DS just happens.....

i think the reasont he DS is said to happens by itself is with the arm only. because you are tryint to uncock from the top (and you can;t) you built up presure in the shaft and are only able to release that pressure once the club gets to about waist high and parellel with ground. so yes since you are releasing form the top the DS with the arms just happens... and it is the legs that only suppost the arms and react to the arm...but that is through using the legs correctly that they become passive and automatic, but it isnt't the legs that swing the club (as it has been said the swing starts form the ground up i dont' believe, i think the opposite, the swing is stared form the wrist down to the arms ........ then to the legs where the legs only push against the ground to support the arms/hand moveing..... i have seen people hit it pretty far with only upper body and no base or lower body used but you can't hit hte ball with all loer body and no arms used..... but to maximise power yes the lower body is needed) next time you weight lift (like bicep curl or sholder lift), do it on one leg with eyes closed....you cna't lift anywhere near as much wiehgt becaue you are using a lot of your energy on you stability. but even if you have proper weight shift, if you didn't "throw" the club from the top then it wouldn't happen automatically. so even though we dont' activly use the legs proper momvement use of the feet/legs is a must to passivly use(automatically use as you say) and maximize power.

see this post to see what i mean by throwing the club
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...-how-golf.html

[lgskywalker37]

Re: the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

also.... the quicker/more forcefull the weight shift is the faster can rotate. try this..... cross hands over shest touching shoulders (it is ok to let you weight get outside/on top your feet for this example) stand with 90% of weight on back foot and then make a BS...pretty easy...now keeping that weight on that foot make a DS, not as easy to turn you shoulders forward. do the same with 90% weight on front foot make a BS kinda hard to do, then back a DS you can really rotate foward fast and powerful now. so the quicker you are able to get you weight back onto you front foot and make the front foot/leg a base to turn around against you can rotate much faster

people joke about the happy gilmore swing but if you had stong enough legs to support all that forward momentum you developed from running and pushed that momentum down like a running jump you could hit the ball quit far i would think, but not very accurate lol

[pnearn]

Re: the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

GolfOne

What are you views on stance width. I recently reduced my stance width with all clubs and found I have a far lower percentage of blocks and pulls. I think this is because the wide stance I *thought* was powerful and stable actually encouraged me to sway/slide on the BS and DS. With a shorter stance I can rotate much better and have less weight shift through the ball

Ive found whenever im off to go back to hitting balls with my feet together and make small increments in stance width really helps me get my timing back. I setup just wide enough to kick my right knee in a bit, get some axis tilt and then feel a coil up my right leg at the top

[bill reed]

Re: the role of the legs (lateral movement or not)

hi
think there are two main styles, the sway/slid and the turn/rotate and both work, think if you look at the older stars of golf, most slid there hips on the downswing but the newer pros thed to be more a turn the very little sway, really it dont matter as long as the club head comes into the ball squre and the ball leaves the clubface when the face is still square to target.
bill