Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

[Chuck MacW]

Low Post posted the following over a year ago in an exchange with Bill Reed:

Bill, I'm playing the (Wishon) 770CFE now - max COR irons, I lose 1% on a 1" toe miss on the 7 iron (robot testing).

Can anyone share any data of the sort that Low Post mentioned above on other clubheads?

Thanks in advance,

Chuck

[LowPost42]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

Hi Chuck,

Tom Wishon did some robot & trackman testing with his own models and published the results.

He used a blade (the 550M, now the 555M)
A players cavity back (the 550C, now the 555C)
A very forgiving forged iron with a milled cavity (the 560MC)
A thin faced iron (770CFE)

The robot was set to hit the heads 150 yards when hitting pure, then tested for 1" off center.

By their data, the 770 is ridiculously forgiving.

The 870Ti wasn't available at that point - but is basically a low-offset version of the 770. I've switched to that and haven't looked back.

Some of the data is as follows:

770CFE: 154 yards
550C/555C: 140-142 yards
550M/555M: 138-140 yards
560MC: 144-146 yards

Keep in mind the 770 is thin faced - so for the same speed you get more ball speed. It lost about a yard and a half - call it 5 feet - normally carrying the ball almost 156.

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

hi Chuck
the Ping Zing 2 and the Ping ISI were the two most forgiving irons ever made. but with forgiveness you lose out in distance.
so its a trade off! with the Zing and ISI the heads were made to be as forgiving as the could made and this put them about 7 yards short of the older Ping Eye 2 irons and about 7 yards short of the later I3s.
with off face hits of about 1/2 inch you would lose about 5 yards with the Zings but only be a foot or two off line. with the Ping Eye and the later I3s you would be much more off line but still be about 7 yards longer than the Zings and the ISIs.
Ping did tests like Tom Wishon but with there Ping man robot and did it through the range of clubs.
that's one reason the have such big heads on the Zings and ISI and it seems most people think there ugly but i would rather have results that something that only looked good.
ther newest I15 heads are very forgiving for a smaller head and the G15 giving you a bigger sole and more forgivness but still not as good as the old Zings and ISIs.
I do not know how the Zings compair to Tom Wishon's 770 irons but i know Tom is a wonderful club maker and has intreduced many new thing to the golf club and i think he if the king of driver makers. and i think it would be tight between the 770 and the Zings.
cheers
Bill

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

I have a question on the term " most forgiving club". Does this forgiveness only come into play when the club face, and club path are square to the intended target line, and the impact point is not on the sweet spot?

Will a forgiving club head help prevent the causes of say a slice, or a hook due to non square face angles, and/or paths to the intended target line? I am thinking "no".

Reason I ask is I know some people who think forgiving club heads are a cure all for poor swing mechanics. GJS

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

Hi GJS
i have used the Ping zings for a long time now and i play a fade and there great clubs to use.
my take is that if hitting a draw or a fade and you miss the sweep spot then you wont miss you aim point by much if you had hit the sweet spot with the same swing.
you can still hit a big hook or slice if the club face comes in to open or to closed.
for me forgivness is more about hitting your distance and putting the ball closer to the target with non-sweet spot hits.
with a off hit on a blade you could lose 10 yards in distance and also be well off line but with the better cavity backs you miss less and are closer to the aim point.
i know what distance i hit with each club and how much i take off going down the grip 1/2 and inch. it means i hit the distance i want most of the time and don't have to worry if half the shots are not sweet spot hits.
a bad shot will still be a bad shot.
hope this helps
cheers
Bill

[LowPost42]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

I have a question on the term " most forgiving club". Does this forgiveness only come into play when the club face, and club path are square to the intended target line, and the impact point is not on the sweet spot?

Will a forgiving club head help prevent the causes of say a slice, or a hook due to non square face angles, and/or paths to the intended target line? I am thinking "no".

Reason I ask is I know some people who think forgiving club heads are a cure all for poor swing mechanics. GJS

Good call GJS. I generally think of forgiveness as a measure of distance lost when the sweetspot is missed. So more forgiveness=less yards lost.

Now, there's also the idea of a club "just wanting to go straight" - a resistance to twisting on off-center hits - but this is a function of clubhead MOI. As Bill said, even with the most 'forgiving' heads, serious face angle-to-path deviations are going to create bending shots.

But I'd offer that at least when I discuss forgiveness, I'm discussing distance. I'd refer to the other as the ability to work the ball with high MOI heads being difficult and low MOI heads being easy.

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

hi lowpost
do you think that using very forgiving clibs with someone who rolls the wrists to control the ball could be harder to shape there shots, than say my way where my stance and line my arms and hands swing down and have no wrist turn.
i have very forgiving clubs as you know but feel its easy to shape the ball.
the only reason i can think of, that i find it easy is the way i set up open and that i try and hit a push shot with my hand pushing away fron my body at impact and NO wrist turn.
i did try my friends blades but my fade was about twice as big with the blades and felt harder to control to me.
like you i think forgivness helps dinstance control. with you miss hits going close to the distance you want.
i think forgivness say with a 9 iron where you have top fly a bunker by 5 yards and a miised sweet spot. with a non-forgining club you land you in the bumker. the good forgiving club will not take as much distance off your shot as say a blabe and you have more chance to get over that bunker.
Cheers
Bill

[rotator]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

LowPost will reply to you, Bill. This is my take.

Firstly, I consider forgiveness as not only loss of distance on off-center strikes, but also on dispersion. This is what I see in the official clubtest reviews. For instance, the test results show what the dispersion is on toe and heel shots, and also loss of distance. So the tester may report that a certain club seems to feel solid on even extreme toe shots, and the results show the ball only was offline by whatever yards, and the loss of distance was so many yards. This applies to thin shots as well, in regard to distance loss, as many of the "forgiving" clubs have lot of weight at the bottom for this purpose.

LowPost has already given the hint in his previous post to your question about whether it is more difficult to shape shots, if you do that by rolling the wrists, when he says:

"Now, there's also the idea of a club "just wanting to go straight" - a resistance to twisting on off-center hits - but this is a function of clubhead MOI. As Bill said, even with the most 'forgiving' heads, serious face angle-to-path deviations are going to create bending shots."

So, it seems to me that it is not necessarily a case of the swing type, i.e. wrist roller or arms/body and stance swing, having a distinct influence on the shot shaping. I would say the MOI built into the club will influence the shot shaping of either swing type the same amount. The more extreme the MOI, the more difficult it will be to shape the shot, no matter if the player is handsey or swing with the arms/body/rotation (you know the players with these different swings). That's why, good players with sound dependable swings, and who want the ability to shape shots on demand, prefer clubs with lower MOI. That is not to say you can't get a vicious snap hook, slice or other nasty shot with an extreme MOI club, as you, I and all golfers have experienced.

Ted

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

LowPost will reply to you, Bill. This is my take.

Firstly, I consider forgiveness as not only loss of distance on off-center strikes, but also on dispersion. This is what I see in the official clubtest reviews. For instance, the test results show what the dispersion is on toe and heel shots, and also loss of distance. So the tester may report that a certain club seems to feel solid on even extreme toe shots, and the results show the ball only was offline by whatever yards, and the loss of distance was so many yards. This applies to thin shots as well, in regard to distance loss, as many of the "forgiving" clubs have lot of weight at the bottom for this purpose.

LowPost has already given the hint in his previous post to your question about whether it is more difficult to shape shots, if you do that by rolling the wrists, when he says:

"Now, there's also the idea of a club "just wanting to go straight" - a resistance to twisting on off-center hits - but this is a function of clubhead MOI. As Bill said, even with the most 'forgiving' heads, serious face angle-to-path deviations are going to create bending shots."

So, it seems to me that it is not necessarily a case of the swing type, i.e. wrist roller or arms/body and stance swing, having a distinct influence on the shot shaping. I would say the MOI built into the club will influence the shot shaping of either swing type the same amount. The more extreme the MOI, the more difficult it will be to shape the shot, no matter if the player is handsey or swing with the arms/body/rotation (you know the players with these different swings). That's why, good players with sound dependable swings, and who want the ability to shape shots on demand, prefer clubs with lower MOI. That is not to say you can't get a vicious snap hook, slice or other nasty shot with an extreme MOI club, as you, I and all golfers have experienced.

Ted

Hi Ted
thats for your reply, as you know i play zings and they are quoted to be one of the most forgiving clubs ever made and i would think that it would also be harder to shape shots using this club.
but that is not what i have found. i find it is easy to shape a shot. most of my shots (95%) are fades and only draw when i really have to but i do not find it at all hard to do and i don't play a draw much as it puts a strain on my damaged spine.
i don't think i have any more talent than 95% of other handicap golfers so it is not down to me being really good.
my point is if i can do it with Zings and i think they have a high MOI why do others strugle to shape shots with clubs with a lower MOI.
i don't disagree with what you say about Moi or lowpost on the resistance of the face to turn on miss hits its just it feels easy to me to hit fades with this old but forgiving club.
also Lee Westwood played Zings till a few years ago on tour and he hit a fade most of the time.
it seemed to go against the thinking of more forgiving less easy to control of the shape of shot and i would agree but in pratice i don't find that with the Zings?????
cheers
Bill

[rotator]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

Hi Bill,

The more forgiving clubs have less dispersion on poorly stuck shots due to off-center strikes and path face angle problems. But, as I said, a bad swing will make even the most forgiving club slice or hook out of control. That is why golfers with poor swings will make even the most expensive state of the art, fitted, "forgiving" clubs slice, and they can't figure out what to do.

For instance, Trevino, Calcaveccia (sp?), Litzke, Monty, and so many others play fades, as to their normal shots. But their shots are solidly struck, on the sweetspot, so the shape is there, but their shots are in control and the loss of distance is not 20-50%, as with the golfer with the poorly struck shot. It's not a slice.

There are many pros who play more or less "forgiving" clubs. As I recall Harrington plays the one of Wilson semi-cavity backed irons, either the i7 or i9. He can shape shots with the best of them. Mickelson plays the Callaway Forged X series, and he's a shotmaker. There are many other examples.

The many good (great) players who have used Eye 2's, Zings, S2H2's, Great Big Berthas, VTF's, whatever Cobra and Titlest and so on, and all of the "forgiving" clubs over the years were able to shape shots. They just know how.

As for your talent versus 95% of amateurs, I think you have understated the facts and yourself. You are a single digit golfer after all, and have the discipline to have figured out what makes the swing work, and have put in the time. Many players who have ongoing issues with their game, such as habitual slicing, have not done that.

The fact that you are able to work the ball with the Zings is due to your ball striking. As you say, you have not missed the loss of distance from playing the fade, as it is a tradeoff. As noted above, I'm sure you have benefited from and enjoyed the forgiveness of the clubs on many occasions.

Ted

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

hi Ted
thanks for your kind words.
i think one thing with me is the confedence in my "Strange" swing and also my belife in the clubs i use. i never hit a bad shot and blame my clubs like many guys i play with do.
i think having confedence plays a really big part in golf and offten over looked by many. there are a lot of very hige handicap golfers that play easely to there handicap and never pratice but have that confedence and you have other that pratice a lot but never get better but don't have faith in there swing or clubs always wanting a new driver or newer clubs.
i have never played a round with blades other than at musselburgh with a set of hicory shafts from the 30s and the loss of distance and lack of hight you get makes you so happy to get your steel shafts back. it a real eye opener.
any golfer wanting to try a round with Hicory shafts then just come to musselburgh "the oldest course in the world" and you can hire a set and then you will understand what its like to play non-forgiving clubs.

cheers
Bill

[LowPost42]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

I'm a little late to the dance, but I'll offer what I can.

A long time ago, Gord and I went back and forth on shot shaping and clubhead forgiveness.

Basically, Bill, you've learned what we settled on - that you need far less exaggeration to work a less forgiving head; put another way the more forgiving your head design, the more you have to do to work the ball. As you've experienced, your fade was twice as big with your stock move when using a club that was less resistant to twisting.

In other words, the higher MOI clubs (more dispersion forgiving) reduce the amount of bending on all your shots, making horrid shots really bad, really bad shots bad, bad shots OK, OK shots good and good shots good (yes, I know about that last one - it seems that it won't transform a good shot into a great one!)

As for the pros - their ballstriking is generally so good that they don't necessarily need a maximum GI iron as they're never really more than a quarter inch from the sweetspot anyway. That's not to say they wouldn't benefit from it (with, say, a really bad move) - but feel is generally a paramount thing with the guys on Tour - and these thin faced irons sound weird.

[BrianW]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

hi Ted
thanks for your kind words.
i think one thing with me is the confedence in my "Strange" swing and also my belife in the clubs i use. i never hit a bad shot and blame my clubs like many guys i play with do.
i think having confedence plays a really big part in golf and offten over looked by many. there are a lot of very hige handicap golfers that play easely to there handicap and never pratice but have that confedence and you have other that pratice a lot but never get better but don't have faith in there swing or clubs always wanting a new driver or newer clubs.
i have never played a round with blades other than at musselburgh with a set of hicory shafts from the 30s and the loss of distance and lack of hight you get makes you so happy to get your steel shafts back. it a real eye opener.
any golfer wanting to try a round with Hicory shafts then just come to musselburgh "the oldest course in the world" and you can hire a set and then you will understand what its like to play non-forgiving clubs.

cheers
Bill

Hi Bill,

My local driving range was owned by an old gentleman called Ron Moses who unfortunately is no longer with us. Ron had been a very good professional golfer in his time and had been the club pro at some good midland golf clubs. He showed me once how to play with hickory shafted clubs using what he called a "drag and trap" method, this allowed the club to lag behind the wrists on the backswing then lag behind the wrists on the downswing. The action was very much like the wrist action you would adopt with a paint brush when painting a garden fence (if you follow me? ) and was very effective with the whippy shaft, if you tried a conventional modern swing it was difficult to control the clubface.

[bill reed]

Re: Question about forgiving irons for Low Post and all

thanks Brian
i give that go when playing in this new years day at the Hickory shaft game we play. we only play 9 holes due to everyone feeling unwell after there new year party
we had the world open hickory comp. a few months ago down near Gullane No2, it was started a few years ago at Musselburgh.
here is a photo of the winner Linnel Freedman and Old Tom Morris.
cheers
Bill