MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

[mirak]

Hello

I'm trying to use progressive SW as a way to get close to a MOI matching. I have been reading alot, but I have a few questions.... Using a spreadsheet I am able to calculate the SWs required for my set, however the issues I have are related to the fact that I'm using light steel (TT GS95) for my set and also use Midsized grips (avg 68 grms)

To be able to get a set that goes from D0 (on the 4I) to D3.6 on the PW and considering the actual weights of the heads and shafts I will be adding anywhere between 6 and 15 grms between the hosel port and shaft tip weights I'm worry that I may be adding too much weight... my biggest question is, how much of a difference does it really make to upgrade the grip size? if I was to match using Std 52g grips I wouldn't have to add that much weight to the heads.... Just wondering and looking for feedback

Thanks

[LowPost42]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Heckuva first post. LOL

First - what slope are you using? 1.35 swingweight points per inch generates a MOI match (notwithstanding a few caveats) - so it should be 4i @ D0, 6i @ D1.35, 8i @ D2.7, PW @ D4.05 (assuming you're using half inch steps between clubs as well).

Next - why the lightweight shafts if you want a D0 swingweight? Between shafts almost 4 swingweight points lighter than stock DG's and grips that rob you of another 3 points, you're doing a lot of work to get to D0 to start. The other thing to consider is that 15g will move the sweetspot appreciably - a full 1/8" towards the hosel (if you use tip/hosel weights. If you use lead tape, you may avoid this by taping the toe).

If I were you, I'd ignore the swingweight target. Dry fit your gear, note your swingweights, do the math to achieve 1.35 sw points per inch.

If you're trying to hit a specific swingweight target, do it through heavier shafts first so that you're not shoving gobs of weight down the hosel.

Lastly, when using SW to create an MOI match, it fails if you manipulate weight above the fulcrum (ie grip weight) as MOI doesn't put very much emphasis on grip end weight changes.

I'm not trying to discourage you (although, re-reading this it may seem that way), however people tend to forget that swingweights and MOI's are a result of the components of the build, not a target that can (or should) always be hit.

D0 is "standard" because it's what happens when you use a 50g grip on a TT DGS300 trimmed for a 254g head with a clublength of 38". Let the swingweights fall where they may.

[mirak]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Heckuva first post. LOL

First - what slope are you using? 1.35 swingweight points per inch generates a MOI match (notwithstanding a few caveats) - so it should be 4i @ D0, 6i @ D1.35, 8i @ D2.7, PW @ D4.05 (assuming you're using half inch steps between clubs as well).

Next - why the lightweight shafts if you want a D0 swingweight? Between shafts almost 4 swingweight points lighter than stock DG's and grips that rob you of another 3 points, you're doing a lot of work to get to D0 to start. The other thing to consider is that 15g will move the sweetspot appreciably - a full 1/8" towards the hosel (if you use tip/hosel weights. If you use lead tape, you may avoid this by taping the toe).

If I were you, I'd ignore the swingweight target. Dry fit your gear, note your swingweights, do the math to achieve 1.35 sw points per inch.

If you're trying to hit a specific swingweight target, do it through heavier shafts first so that you're not shoving gobs of weight down the hosel.

Lastly, when using SW to create an MOI match, it fails if you manipulate weight above the fulcrum (ie grip weight) as MOI doesn't put very much emphasis on grip end weight changes.

I'm not trying to discourage you (although, re-reading this it may seem that way), however people tend to forget that swingweights and MOI's are a result of the components of the build, not a target that can (or should) always be hit.

D0 is "standard" because it's what happens when you use a 50g grip on a TT DGS300 trimmed for a 254g head with a clublength of 38". Let the swingweights fall where they may.

Thanks for the quick answer, Yes I am trying to use the 1.35 sw point per inch scale and appreciate the point that trying to start at D0 just because everybody else does. (my scale was a bit off because I was using .6 for each club instead of 6.75, it has been corrected)

The fact is, that if I was building the set using standard 52 gram grips I wouldn't have to add that much weight. So If the set was close to MOI at that point it should remain the same if I just switch to heavier shafts since as you said the weight manipulation above the fulcrum doesn't really affect MOI

I also have the option, that since I'm using light weight shafts I could treat these as graphite shafts and add some length to make up for the lighter shafts? What do you think?

[LowPost42]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Thanks for the quick answer, Yes I am trying to use the 1.35 sw point per inch scale and appreciate the point that trying to start at D0 just because everybody else does. (my scale was a bit off because I was using .6 for each club instead of 6.75, it has been corrected)

The fact is, that if I was building the set using standard 52 gram grips I wouldn't have to add that much weight. So If the set was close to MOI at that point it should remain the same if I just switch to heavier shafts since as you said the weight manipulation above the fulcrum doesn't really affect MOI

I also have the option, that since I'm using light weight shafts I could treat these as graphite shafts and add some length to make up for the lighter shafts? What do you think?

I've never agreed with lengthening shafts to hit a swingweight target - especially as a staunch believer in True Length Technology.

You're right that to hit your swingweight target it's easier done with the lighter grips - but this is because swingweight puts so much emphasis on the weight above the 14" fulcrum (ie the grip end).

I think the tall and the short is that you're fixated on the wrong number here - a D0 4 iron.

Let's ask a few questions to make sure we're going in the right direction:

Why do you want a D0 4 iron?
Why do you want to use GS95 shafts?
Why do you want to use midsize grips?
Why do you want a MOI matched set?

[mirak]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Good points...

Why do you want a D0 4 iron? I really don't Just going with what everybody suggest should start...

Why do you want to use GS95 shafts? I like light weight shafts, used to play DGSL and want to try these... as a way to increase swing speed

Why do you want to use midsize grips? I have big hands, that's what the charts tell me.

Why do you want a MOI matched set? More consistency? I always used just SW and Spinning Want to go a bit further...




I am not fixed on the D0 I just wanted to validate that it doesn't have to be D0 to be OK

Forgot to mention, using SE600XC Heads since these have Hosel Ports I can add weight that way...

[LowPost42]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Good points...

Why do you want a D0 4 iron? I really don't Just going with what everybody suggest should start...

Why do you want to use GS95 shafts? I like light weight shafts, used to play DGSL and want to try these... as a way to increase swing speed

Why do you want to use midsize grips? I have big hands, that's what the charts tell me.

Why do you want a MOI matched set? More consistency? I always used just SW and Spinning Want to go a bit further...




I am not fixed on the D0 I just wanted to validate that it doesn't have to be D0 to be OK

Forgot to mention, using SE600XC Heads since these have Hosel Ports I can add weight that way...

Good stuff. Those 600XC's are dahm sexeh... I played them for a season before moving on to Wishon 560MCs (before moving on to Wishon 870Tis).

The answers for my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th questions are great answers. Have you looked into FLO (versus spine)? FLO is a much better QA method with S1 to the 12 o'clock side of the FLO plane.

Yes, D0 doesn't have to show up anywhere in the progression. Like I said earlier, D0 is a build result, not a fitting target - which is not to say you can't find components to get to D0, but that you shouldn't maul your sticks to get it. A favourite clubmaking phrase is "I can build you a club at D0 that you simply cannot hit". As per Tim Hewitt; let the swingweight be the swingweight. You'd be surprised how well you hit a C5 club - because it's built to the right length but has a lightweight shaft and a heavy grip.

Just to keep it clear:

Dry fit your stuff.
Record your swingweights.
Figure out how to hit your 1.35 swppi slope with the least amount of added headweight (IOW, one head will accept no weight); and using your numbers it means one head will get 9g (using between 6 and 15g, you're theoretically now using between 0 and 9g).
Build to your weight targets.
Love your new sticks.

[mirak]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

So, after playing around for a few days I have now actual weights of the heads and raw shafts also uncut lengths of the raw shafts (each different since I'm using TT GS95) Since for what I've read having 8gr difference between the heads and 1/2 in per club would produce a good start I dry fitted the heads to be exactly 8grms apart using the hosel weight ports.


Club| Actual| Added | Final Wt
4 | 249.4 | 0.6 | 250
5 | 254.4 | 3.6 | 258
6 | 262.0 | 4.0 | 266
7 | 271.0 | 3.0 | 274
8 | 275.6 | 6.4 | 282
9 | 282.4 | 7.6 | 290
PW | 290.4 | 7.6 | 298
GW | 291.0 | 7.0 | 298

However if I use a spreadsheet to predict the SWs taking into consideration the other factors and with the intention of having SW intervals of .7 between clubs I come with something much different...

Club | SW |SW DIF | Weight | Added| Final Wt. | Raw Shaft (g) | Raw Shaft (L)
4 | C6.7 | 0.0 | 249.4 | 2.5 | 251.5 | 99.8 | 40
5 | C7.4 | 0.7 | 254.4 | 4.2 | 259.1 | 100.3 | 39.5
6 | C8.0 | 0.6 | 262.0 | 5.2 | 267.2 | 99.7 | 39
7 | C8.7 | 0.7 | 271.0 | 4.3 | 275.3 | 101.2 | 38.5
8 | C9.4 | 0.7 | 275.6 | 8.3 | 283.9 | 101.4 | 38
9 | D0.1 | 0.7 | 282.4 | 11.0 | 293.4 | 99.9 | 37.5
PW | D0.8 | 0.7 | 290.4 | 12.5 | 302.9 | 99.9 | 37
GW | D0.8 | 0.0 | 291.0 | 11.5 | 302.5 | 102.3 | 37

Should I stick to the first or second scenario??

I'm more inclined on sticking to the second one...

[LowPost42]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

8g and 0.5" steps or 7g and 0.4" steps creates a rough MOI match. It's not nearly as tight as 1.35 swppi.

The question is how precise do you want to be?

I've built sets eyeballing my GS Clubweight scale (the higher end swingweight scale) and then double checking them for 1% tolerance on my MOI Speedmatch machine and they've come in under tolerance.

In your second scenario, I'd still start out backing down all your weight added by 2.5g. The other thing to consider is it's tough to find a 8.5g hosel weight. 8 and 9, OK, but that .5 is pesky. Figure out which side of .7 you want to cheat to and use the appropriate weight.

If you're interested, I've got the first gen MOI machine - the pendulum and software - that I'd sell you pretty cheap. It just sits here since I've upgraded to Speedmatch.

[mirak]

Re: MOI by Matching SW Questions (help needed)

Thanks for the prompt answer...

Good point on backing down the weight by 2.5 on the second scenario...

I figured out a way to add weight very precisely... found these on another thread and picked up some of the 1/4 Oz ones at Bass Pro Shops in Vaughan (although they are supposed to be 7 grams each they all weight about 6.6 grms) They are made of lead, so they are very easy to trim to the exact size (weight) I needed with some cutters They fit inside the hosel port of the SE I have many Wishon weights 2,4,6 and 9 but this is easier.. If i needed, I used a 6grm weight + a small piece of the lead one.

Anyway, I may go that route and see how it goes....

Regarding the machine, how much is "cheap"? Send me a PM if you want