Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

[kglade]

I am a beginning golfer and am considering getting a set of clubs fitted for me. I am 6 feet 4 inches and play with an off-the-shelf $200 set (Acuity RCX from dicks sporting goods). I've tried online fitting at a few websites and get varying recommendations from 1/2" to 1" extra length, and from 2 to 3 degrees more upright lie.

In looking around the internet I found a few sites that recommend either single length golf clubs or clubs with only small length differences between adjacent clubs.

The basic argument is that with a single length, the golfer's stance and swing plane stay the same for each club. Only the loft of the club changes. This sounds logical to me.

On the other hand, most clubs I see for sale have lengths that vary about 1/2 inch between adjacent clubs.

Is there a reason for clubs to vary in length? Is there an advantage to single length clubs?

I went to a local clubmaker and he measured my wrist-to-floor and told me I'd need +3/4 inch but with a standard lie. He does not believe in adjusting the lie angle, but told me that swingweight is much more important.

What to believe?

Is having a constant swingweight important? Why or why not?


Thanks.

Ken

[LowPost42]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

Hello Ken,

Some great questions that, IMO, don't get asked often enough.

I'll try and keep my answers concise rather than blather on about details and history (this time!).

The original reason for clubs to vary in length was to keep swingweights close.

There is a tremendous advantage, IMO, to single length/true length sets; the biggest one being that you get put into your optimal athletic position for every club, rather than standing taller with the long irons and shorter with the short irons.

The clubmaker that doesn't believe in adjusting lie angle is either a) unequipped to do the job, b) cheap, c) lazy, or d) all of the above. How do I know? Because when I started this crazy gig call clubmaking and clubfitting, I was d. In fact, I employ a method now that could very well suit d, but truth be told, you always need to be able to adjust for loft and lie - manufacturing tolerances make this a must.

As for the swingweight issue, the toughest thing to overcome in golf is tradition. This is why single length/true length clubs aren't prevelant and why swingweight matching is still the 'go to' heft matching system, even though we have MOI matching now (which follows a progressive swingweight).

I will stand firm and say that correct lie angles are far more important than constant or progressive swingweight. However, if you're going to get a set of club built, why not get them built so that club to club they all feel very similar and hence swing similar?

I've got a ton of opinion on this stuff, but I thought I'd start by just answering your questions succinctly.

[doppelganger]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

Perfect thread there kglade!

So what you guys are saying is that a single length iron set is a plus for ball striking. On the other hand, how short is too short a shaft? Do you need to go with the shortest club you've got and go from there? I actually did realize this past summer that by choking my 3, 4 and 5 irons' shaft a few inches, I could strike them the same I would my 7, 8 and other shorter irons. I'm pretty happy with the way I hit my shorter irons. So, as I said, how short ir too short? Will shortening the longer irons affect balance or should I consider reshafting by a pro? I'm 5'10" tall.

[kglade]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

Thanks, lowpost and cmays for your insights.

Doppelganger,

I did some more research on the web and it seems that if you make all clubs the same length then you don't get enough difference in ball distance between clubs. The added length adds clubhead speed and thus a few extra yards (or meters).

On the other hand, websites like 1 Iron Golf...extreme game improvement golf clubs. and myOstrich Golf Clubmakers
seem to make adjustments to the club loft to get the proper distances for each club.

[bill reed]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

hi
Ping are now using a system called AWT on the shafts off all there new clubs. Ascending Weight Technology.
there longer clubs have a much lighter shaft and this giver you a faster swing speed and also a higher ball flight. with the shorter irons the shaft is much more heaver as they get to the heaver headed wedge and this gives you more control over your ball, again the swing weight is closely matched with each club to make them feel like your swing the same club through the bag. i have tried them on a demo day fitted to the G10s and i did not feel any difference to my old shafts but did like the clubs.
so far i think only Ping use this AWT system.
bill

[doppelganger]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

This is all very interesting. Of course the longer irons have longer shafts to produce a flatter swing path. The thing is I just have a tendancy to hit just a few too many fat shots with the longer irons. I actually posted a question about driver shaft length earlier this summer. I concluded that by choking on the shaft a little (driver), I had much more control on the shots and did not see any distance loss... but hell was the ball straight! I'll keep checking out those links there kglade.

Although, shortening my 3, 4, 5 and 6 irons to the lenght of my 7 iron would probably work wonders. Man I need to experiment here.

Thank you guys!

[LowPost42]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

Lets see if I can make a few general, blanket statements.

How short is too short? I'll tell you the fastest way to find out. Stand up and close your eyes. Now, get into your golf stance. You'll automatically default into an athletic, balanced, ready-for-dynamic-movement position. Any club that doesn't hit your hands here with a static ball position is too long or too short. I find it interesting DG that you didn't notice distance loss. Quality contact will do that for you. IMO the average golfer who is flippy in their swing won't notice any appreciable distance loss (however, they may gain some) due to their weak ball striking method. I'm also willing to wager that dispersion tightens up a touch and direction improves.

@Bill: The way the AWT works is slightly confusing to me.
In a conventional set of irons, lets assume that everything is made to spec: Each raw shaft weighs 125g, each head is 7g heavier than the preceeding head, and every club is 0.5" shorter than the preceeding one. This gets us very close to a SW match (D0 to D1.5 across the board - an acceptable tolerance).

If we assume that the heaviest shaft is 125g, and then we move back by an arbitrary 7g, say, simply to counter the weight in the heads, then we get a range from C7 to D0; golfers with no sense of feel may be OK with this set. Moving the step to 5g gets us closer (C8 to D0). Many golfers will not feel the difference here, but there are still many who will. Looking at what little info Ping gives on AWT, I see that they start with a lightweight steel shaft in R, but move to a more standard weight in X. I find it interesting that the points they push is more SS in the longer stuff and more control in the shorter stuff.

I applaud them for moving away from a standard system (Ping, IMO, is the 'original innovator'), but I don't comprehend the logic behind the system, and they don't offer ready answers on the website.

[bill reed]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

hi lowpost
what i have found out is that they try and get a lighter shaft in there long irons and as they also have a lighter head and they can balance the them to match, as the heads get heaver so do the shafts but are still balanced. the long irons will be lighter like your driver is but the short irons are heaver but when swing they are balanced so feel the same.
i know you know so much more than i do about this and i could have it totally wrong but thats what i was told and all the pro tour (Ping) player are now using the AWT system, some of the pros tried the new I10s (like the G10s but more of a blade) but went back to the S58 but had there shafts changed to the new system.
Westwood and Carbrera both seem to be doing well with this as is Ochoa. i would think they would be ably to feel any difference i the shaft but i don't think i would.
i think if other club makers start to copy then it must work but as yet i think there not enough known as yet and maybe Ping want it that way for the moment.
if i do have it wrong please let me know.
thanks
bill

[doppelganger]

Re: Single Length Clubs? Importance of Swingweight?

In fact LowPost, I probably "lost" a little distance while hitting the full length of the shaft because of the above mentionned occasional fat shot (with long irons). Seriously, I rarely ever hit a fat shot with anything from a 7 iron through lob wedge. With the longer irons, it always haunts me at least twice a round. Hence, this results in lack of confidence with them. But, when I did start experimenting the choking of the shaft, results were quite interesting: no fat shots, sweet spot contact and no significant distance loss which was a surprise. I have reference points at my local club that just don't lie. It's the same with my driver. I could regularly hit it 285 off the tee, but the long shaft made it difficult to control. Now, by choking on the shaft (which looks odd to others playing with me, but I don't care), I can still hit it 285 on the same holes. I'm going to keep experimenting and before long, I'm sure my handicap will drop even more and perhaps then will I play that elusive 79. Came close, but never quite did it.