Pivot Drills

[pnearn]

Guys

I am giving my new brother in law a few lessons - trying to help him out a little really - he loves the range and drills (hes only been playing 6 months) so i'd like to find a few for him to work on

From what I can see his biggest flaw is the 'fake' shoulder turn on his backswing. He's pusing the club back with his hands arms so halfway back it looks right but his shoulders/hips havent moved at all. He then lifts his arms up to the top and loops it down in an OTT move. It 'looks' OK at the top but theres no pivot hence no power and the OTT

I've had him trying to feel as if its the chest/torso that turns the arms, all the way to the top so he pivots right and gets his left shoulder behind the ball. Keep the left arm straight, elbows close, feel the left arm rotate to a flat left wrist etc. Weve watched a few pro swings so he can see what i mean

When he's got the hang of this he's hit it much more powerfully (if a little scattered but one thing at a time!) but when playing he says himself it only takes him 2 holes to start swinging it back with his hands again

So im after a few drills anyone knows or can think of where he can practice just rotating back on the backswing. No hands, no lifting, no conscious wirst movements - just a level shoulder turn around his spine angle and a decent pivot

These are things he can then work at on the range to try and get the hang of it

Tks !

[jbrunk]

Re: Pivot Drills

Guys

I am giving my new brother in law a few lessons - trying to help him out a little really - he loves the range and drills (hes only been playing 6 months) so i'd like to find a few for him to work on

From what I can see his biggest flaw is the 'fake' shoulder turn on his backswing. He's pusing the club back with his hands arms so halfway back it looks right but his shoulders/hips havent moved at all. He then lifts his arms up to the top and loops it down in an OTT move. It 'looks' OK at the top but theres no pivot hence no power and the OTT

I've had him trying to feel as if its the chest/torso that turns the arms, all the way to the top so he pivots right and gets his left shoulder behind the ball. Keep the left arm straight, elbows close, feel the left arm rotate to a flat left wrist etc. Weve watched a few pro swings so he can see what i mean

When he's got the hang of this he's hit it much more powerfully (if a little scattered but one thing at a time!) but when playing he says himself it only takes him 2 holes to start swinging it back with his hands again

So im after a few drills anyone knows or can think of where he can practice just rotating back on the backswing. No hands, no lifting, no conscious wirst movements - just a level shoulder turn around his spine angle and a decent pivot

These are things he can then work at on the range to try and get the hang of it

Tks !

Tell him to step into his right foot to start the backswing. The key is getting him to wind up over the right leg by turning around a point at the base of his neck. If he is wound up properly he should feel stretching in his right hamstring, and he can let his weight come back to center as it should to start his downswing pivot. My pivot feels like it catches my arms and hands at the top of the swing.

Another drill I have used is to setup with no club, hands on hips and simply turn the torso over the right side (no weight on outside of right foot) as if he were looking at someone behind him.

[klaymon]

Re: Pivot Drills

I've seen something along the lines of holding a club across your chest about shoulder height, and work on rotating and causing the butt end of the grip to rotate at/past the ball.

[BrianW]

Re: Pivot Drills

Guys

I am giving my new brother in law a few lessons - trying to help him out a little really - he loves the range and drills (hes only been playing 6 months) so i'd like to find a few for him to work on

From what I can see his biggest flaw is the 'fake' shoulder turn on his backswing. He's pusing the club back with his hands arms so halfway back it looks right but his shoulders/hips havent moved at all. He then lifts his arms up to the top and loops it down in an OTT move. It 'looks' OK at the top but theres no pivot hence no power and the OTT

I've had him trying to feel as if its the chest/torso that turns the arms, all the way to the top so he pivots right and gets his left shoulder behind the ball. Keep the left arm straight, elbows close, feel the left arm rotate to a flat left wrist etc. Weve watched a few pro swings so he can see what i mean

When he's got the hang of this he's hit it much more powerfully (if a little scattered but one thing at a time!) but when playing he says himself it only takes him 2 holes to start swinging it back with his hands again

So im after a few drills anyone knows or can think of where he can practice just rotating back on the backswing. No hands, no lifting, no conscious wirst movements - just a level shoulder turn around his spine angle and a decent pivot

These are things he can then work at on the range to try and get the hang of it

Tks !

Hi Paul,

Take a look at this site it has some great information for beginners. The Elbow Drill there is really good but there is some good stuff on Pivot and hand + arm relationship.

I hope it helps.

http://www.purgatorygolf.com/book/complete.html

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Pivot Drills

Guys

I am giving my new brother in law a few lessons - trying to help him out a little really - he loves the range and drills (hes only been playing 6 months) so i'd like to find a few for him to work on

From what I can see his biggest flaw is the 'fake' shoulder turn on his backswing. He's pusing the club back with his hands arms so halfway back it looks right but his shoulders/hips havent moved at all. He then lifts his arms up to the top and loops it down in an OTT move. It 'looks' OK at the top but theres no pivot hence no power and the OTT

I've had him trying to feel as if its the chest/torso that turns the arms, all the way to the top so he pivots right and gets his left shoulder behind the ball. Keep the left arm straight, elbows close, feel the left arm rotate to a flat left wrist etc. Weve watched a few pro swings so he can see what i mean

When he's got the hang of this he's hit it much more powerfully (if a little scattered but one thing at a time!) but when playing he says himself it only takes him 2 holes to start swinging it back with his hands again

So im after a few drills anyone knows or can think of where he can practice just rotating back on the backswing. No hands, no lifting, no conscious wirst movements - just a level shoulder turn around his spine angle and a decent pivot

These are things he can then work at on the range to try and get the hang of it

Tks !

I've seen something along the lines of holding a club across your chest about shoulder height, and work on rotating and causing the butt end of the grip to rotate at/past the ball.

The club across the chest drill is a good one as is putting the club on the shoulders and making a level shoulder turn around the spine. He could also try the drill to tuck a glove, headcover, or towel under the armpits.

A couple of thoughts and moves he could take on the course to focus on the body movement could include:

Start the swing by focusing on the belly button and keying on turning it away from the target (with the arms, hands, and club moving with it). (Nick Faldo, Nick Price, David Leadbetter thought).

He could also try the swing key of moving the abs into the rib cage (Steve Elkington's key) to start the backswing.

[pnearn]

Re: Pivot Drills

Thanks for the replies guys. Can I also get your opinions on width of stance when pivoting. My BIL has quite a narrow stance (at least to me) which *I think* makes his OTT move worse because he has no base to support his rotation coming down and thus is spinning out

I have a wide stance but I am taller than he is (im 6'1 he's 5'10) so interested to hear some thoughts. He thinks its uncomfortable but he doesnt pull so much but now he pushes some (which I think is better because hes not so OTT and we can work on a better release)

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Pivot Drills

Thanks for the replies guys. Can I also get your opinions on width of stance when pivoting. My BIL has quite a narrow stance (at least to me) which *I think* makes his OTT move worse because he has no base to support his rotation coming down and thus is spinning out

I have a wide stance but I am taller than he is (im 6'1 he's 5'10) so interested to hear some thoughts. He thinks its uncomfortable but he doesnt pull so much but now he pushes some (which I think is better because hes not so OTT and we can work on a better release)

Many pros and instructors advocate having the inside of your feet as wide apart as the outside of your shoulders for a driver, and having the outside of your feet as wide apart as your shoulders for a five-iron.
The wider your stance the less the hips will be able to turn, and the narrower the stance the more freedom the hips have to move. If you belive the X-Factor reseach it says that the greater the difference between the hips and shoulders in the downswing the longer you'll hit the ball, so for shots where you are looking to generate distance (like drives) the wider stance may assist in getting that extra distance. My preference for full swings is that I'd rather have a stance that is too wide than too narrow. For full swings I want a stable base that will help maintain balance during the swing. When pitching, chipping, or putting you don't need a full swing, and you don't need to transfer as much (if any) weight, so stance width isn't as important there. Out of all the basics (grip, aim, alignment, balance, posture, ball position, and stance) I view stance width as the least important, and the area that you can see variation from pro to pro. (Sergio Garcia tends to use a narrower stance with the driver then his fellow tour pros. Adam Scott, Charles Howell, and Davis Love on the other hand tend to favor a wider stance than most pros).

Below is a picture of pros at setup. You could draw lines up from the insides and outsides of their feet in an image editing program to get an idea of their stance width from player to player and club to club.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/254...ballposdg0.jpg

[Cliff]

Re: Pivot Drills

For many new golfers the thought of hitting a ball that’s stationary is unnerving, knowing that you should be able to just hit it without any effort at all, but can’t!

The ball is stationary and we are standing side on to it (Silly game!) in an effort to hit it away we can be a bit abrupt and swift and rather short in the backswing because it is easer to do that way at first.

Get him to practice the short game first, in doing so he will feel the contact on the ball required to make the ball take off in the direction and shape desired, keep it simple at first. (I see to many new players these days hitting drivers thinking that is the way to learn a golf swing!)

While practicing this way you can slow down the swing and see what is taking place, you can make small adjustments maybe one swing change at a time is enough to confuse him! Anyway rhythm/timing is the essence of your early lessons, try to enjoy it because any sign of (no don’t hit it that way, from you to him, will knock his confidence beyond repair).

Have him try and chip the ball into a net a few yards away, while doing so explain to him that the loft on the club will do the work for him because if he is new to golf he might not understand what loft is for on a golf club, then all he needs to do is swing the club in the direction of the target keeping his hands ahead of the club head at impact. You can have some great fun doing this and it will help your game too and mine!

The new player must learn to walk before he can run!

I am sure there is a member on this website that can explain in a more precise way, but I think I have it covered!

[pnearn]

Re: Pivot Drills

Thanks Cliff

Yes, we are only hitting shot shorts at the moment, half swings with a PW and 7i to try and grain in him some feelings. When he;s got it right he's hit his 7i 150 odd yards with a little half swing and is loving it

One thing he is struggling with when learning the pivot is his left knee, it tends to really collapse as he turns, which leads to his hips turning too much and a sway. Weve been looking at the pro vids and he can see how the lower body (knees) stay apart and braced as the shoulders and hips turn

http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/02/40/24/index.html

Aside from the football between the legs what else could he do (on half swings) to try and ingrain the feeling ok keeping his left knee stable and the gap between his knees as he turns? Right now were working on a back swing trigger which he says is feeling his left knee push out towards the target as he turns his chest back - seems to work quite well for him but im not so sure it isnt a band aid

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Pivot Drills

One thing he is struggling with when learning the pivot is his left knee, it tends to really collapse as he turns, which leads to his hips turning too much and a sway. Weve been looking at the pro vids and he can see how the lower body (knees) stay apart and braced as the shoulders and hips turn

http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/02/40/24/index.html

Aside from the football between the legs what else could he do (on half swings) to try and ingrain the feeling ok keeping his left knee stable and the gap between his knees as he turns? Right now were working on a back swing trigger which he says is feeling his left knee push out towards the target as he turns his chest back - seems to work quite well for him but im not so sure it isnt a band aid

I know you directed your question toward Cliff, but here is my thoughts.
Have him flare out his left foot at setup. Flaring the left foot will automatically reduce the turning of the left hip and movement of the left leg (and knee). If that doesn't reduce it enough you could suggest to him to feel like he is maintaining his knee flex during the swing. Nick Faldo was a big believer that the legs job is to support the swing, not direct the motion.

[Cliff]

Re: Pivot Drills

You need to find some common ground when teaching/working with your brother.

What I mean is that if your brother has been skiing he would understand that balance from the feet/knees/hips all work in harmony and are as one and if one side should break down the other will try and make up the difference, now if he is swinging/moving to fast he will fall over simple as that.

Regarding the left leg bending to much don’t worry about that better it bends than not at all.

This is a good guide to balance, try and get your brother to set up over the ball (that’s before he starts moving the club away) at that point ask him to stay in position and take you butt end of the golf club and from his front just gently push him in the chest then go to the side and push him in the shoulder do this all the way round, now if he does not fall to one side and has a good posture he will resist the pushing by you. If he fails at this point you will need to rework his set up (do it from ground up to his head)

Now ask him to swing half way back and then do the same with your butt end of the golf club, start from the front and work your way round his body go in a clockwise direction. At this point he might fail (possibly when you push his right side) due to the lack of control in his left leg, I would also think he not transferred to much weight over to his right leg at this point either.

Now ask him to swing as far back before he starts any downswing (Some folks think it should go right to the top and parallel to target, that is not always the case. Some golfers can’t get there, me for one lol I’m way to old)

Do the pushing again all the way round, and check for balance, if he should topple one way (you will need to look for a remedy if that is the case) ask him to start over and get to the top.

Now if he is not too bruised at this point! He/you will have some idea at what point in the swing things start to happen, like weight transfer and balance.

This is only a guide and the pushing should only be a small amount, just enough to let him feel resistance in his set up.

Regards Cliff

[Cliff]

Re: Pivot Drills

AvidGolfer my friend this is an open forum, I’m sure the more the merrier when it comes to help.

I am trying to steer away from any technical aspect in the brothers swing due to what could be excess overload when you start out playing this game. I agree with what you are saying though the feet direction have a huge impact in any bodies swing be it direction/balance/backswing/follow through, but as I said he needs to walk before he runs.

[pnearn]

Re: Pivot Drills

I know you directed your question toward Cliff, but here is my thoughts.
Have him flare out his left foot at setup. Flaring the left foot will automatically reduce the turning of the left hip and movement of the left leg (and knee). If that doesn't reduce it enough you could suggest to him to feel like he is maintaining his knee flex during the swing. Nick Faldo was a big believer that the legs job is to support the swing, not direct the motion.

We did this for a little while today and he thought it helped him. We are gardually taking his hands out of the swing and he now has a decent pivot going back. His grip, alignment, etc all look good.

We touched a little today on him hitting the ball with the pivot (right hip) in the downswing and holding the wrist angle (passive hands) to turn the hands through impact and retain lag- he struggled with this to start with (going at with his hands from the top and casting/OTT etc) but when he started 'getting it ' he hit a couple of half swings really nicely

Cliff, my BIL is an info junkie - an analyst and is turning into a range rat! - hence why he wanted some drills. If I tell him something he wants to know why and will go look it up on the internet! We are only hitting half swings right now to grain some feelings in and I can see already he's on the right path. He's also booked in for a few lessons from a pro as I think he's best off checking what im showing him isnt poppycock

Good thing is were enjoying it and he does seem to be improving

[jambalaya]

Re: Pivot Drills

I know you directed your question toward Cliff, but here is my thoughts.
Have him flare out his left foot at setup. Flaring the left foot will automatically reduce the turning of the left hip and movement of the left leg (and knee). If that doesn't reduce it enough you could suggest to him to feel like he is maintaining his knee flex during the swing. Nick Faldo was a big believer that the legs job is to support the swing, not direct the motion.

That last sentence is key. I think most beginning golfers move their legs around too much creating too much lateral movement in the swing. Learning to pivot your torso around a stable base is a hard thing to grasp. The weight shift from back to front leg should not be a big movement. I played with a guy on Friday that had that problem big time. He moved the legs back as a first move creating a reverse pivot. He even used his legs to putt. He would move the left leg back and then forward actually powering his arms with his legs. Needless to say he powerd most of his putts past the hole.

[pnearn]

Re: Pivot Drills

That last sentence is key. I think most beginning golfers move their legs around too much creating too much lateral movement in the swing. Learning to pivot your torso around a stable base is a hard thing to grasp. The weight shift from back to front leg should not be a big movement. I played with a guy on Friday that had that problem big time. He moved the legs back as a first move creating a reverse pivot. He even used his legs to putt. He would move the left leg back and then forward actually powering his arms with his legs. Needless to say he powerd most of his putts past the hole.

Thats very true. I personally have a lot of knee bend at address, a real squat as I feel that really solidifies my base. Real big angles between my knee and my upper leg. I know that I dont have this I start spraying it all over but equally I know its not for everyone