ball postion in relation to left heel.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Here is my confusion. Look at some of the images that Avidgolfer posted and the address position of some of those who are using a driver. The only way that the ball is going to come close to being in the middle of the stance with a pitching wedge is if your two feet are almost touching. Ernie Els seems to have a more reasonable ball position that would lend itself to the method as does Annika. I would say that one would have to have the ball about three inches inside the left heel for the method to work. Are some of these golfers adjusting the ball position just for the driver and keeping it the same for all other clubs?

One of the things I intended to show in the picture(s) was that using your feet (stance) to determine ball position is not necessarily a good idea. When people hear the middle of the stance concept they think that that should mean it also lines up with the middle of the chest and the middle of the head, but as the green lines illistrate none of the golfers play the ball in line with the center of the chest or in line with their nose. Every one of them has it lined up with the left ear or forward of that regardless of the club. Ernie Els and Annika Sorenstam are two players who have noted in their books that they feel like they vary their ball position. The majority of the pros in the picture(s) say they use a constant ball position (Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, Nick Price, Stuart Appleby, Adam Scott, Charles Howell, Davis Love, Justin Leonard, Fred Couples, and Retief Goosen). Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, and Nick Price have stated that to get more distance (in the air) they widen their stance (to promote a flatter wider swing arc) and move the ball forward (along with teeing it higher) to promote hitting the ball on the upswing.

For anyone wondering what picture(s) jambalaya and I are referring to here is another link to it:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/254...ballposdg0.jpg

Here is Els using a more modern driver:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2...faceseqpk0.jpg
(as you can see he has it much more forward there - perhaps slightly too far farward).

[jambalaya]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

I definitely need to go to the range for some experimentation. If I could just get the bottom my swing to happen in the right place consitently that would help loads.

Another kind of related question. When I line up for a short pitch I am opening up the stance or rather my foot positions. However, I realize that I do not correspondingly open up the shoulders. Shouldn't I keep the two parallel and just open my clubface in my hands to keep it square to the target. I think that is why I am stubbing some pitches or pulling them sometimes.

[BrianW]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

I definitely need to go to the range for some experimentation. If I could just get the bottom my swing to happen in the right place consitently that would help loads.

Another kind of related question. When I line up for a short pitch I am opening up the stance or rather my foot positions. However, I realize that I do not correspondingly open up the shoulders. Shouldn't I keep the two parallel and just open my clubface in my hands to keep it square to the target. I think that is why I am stubbing some pitches or pulling them sometimes.

Think of a pitch as a mini version of the full swing. As you will be making a shortened back and downswing you will not have time to rotate your hips fully back and through. So you set your stance open making your hips pre-set to clear the downswing and your weight will be predomently on the lead leg, head behind the ball. This sets you up close to the impact position from the start, your shoulders should be the same as impact, square or very slightly open.

[jambalaya]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Can you tell us what problems you have with ball flight when using long irons.

The swing should be similar with all clubs but the swing plane will differ as should ball position. Longer clubs will require a shallower swing plane and the ball should be positioned more forward in your stance, the club should strike the ball with a shallower angle of attack than mid or short irons but should still use a slightly downward blow. The swing should also use the same tempo as your shorter irons, imagine a 3 iron has a "7" stamped on it when you consider swing speed.

I am not picking on you Brian but I had to take this quote from another thread on which you were commenting to illustrate a point. We have been talking about the method whereby we place the ball say three inches inside our left heel and vary the width of our stance and open and close the stance according to club selection. But look above how we explain things to people in an unrelated thread. You said the ball should be "positioned more forward in your stance". Now I get that you said "positioned" not moved forward in the stance but the average golfer is not going to interpret it that way. They are going to move the ball forward in their stances. Why don't we just tell them to widen their stance? I am kind of obsessed these days with how imprecise golf instruction can be and how intpretation of what someone says can lead us down the wrong path. Professional instructors do it every day. Just food for thought.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Another kind of related question. When I line up for a short pitch I am opening up the stance or rather my foot positions. However, I realize that I do not correspondingly open up the shoulders. Shouldn't I keep the two parallel and just open my clubface in my hands to keep it square to the target. I think that is why I am stubbing some pitches or pulling them sometimes.

Some people advocate opening the stance to reduce the chance (and distance) the lower body will turn on the backswing (aka less moving parts). The problem is if you open it too much your body will want to turn to a natural postion, and your upper body will spin left to sqaure up with your open lower body, that may move your point of contact (resulting in the stubs), and/or cause your swing path to move to the left (resulting in the pulls).

Watch Ernie Els, Nick Faldo, and Phil Mickelson on most pitch shots (and with Els and Faldo on chips) they set up pretty square with their feet and hips. Setup sqaure with your body and have the lower body remain stable, and you should have a better chance of hitting your short shots online.

[BrianW]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

I am not picking on you Brian but I had to take this quote from another thread on which you were commenting to illustrate a point. We have been talking about the method whereby we place the ball say three inches inside our left heel and vary the width of our stance and open and close the stance according to club selection. But look above how we explain things to people in an unrelated thread. You said the ball should be "positioned more forward in your stance". Now I get that you said "positioned" not moved forward in the stance but the average golfer is not going to interpret it that way. They are going to move the ball forward in their stances. Why don't we just tell them to widen their stance? I am kind of obsessed these days with how imprecise golf instruction can be and how intpretation of what someone says can lead us down the wrong path. Professional instructors do it every day. Just food for thought.

Jamb, With due respect I think you are incorrect with your criticism. Where the ball is positioned in the stance should be the same whatever system you use and the term "Positioned" is the accepted form, it does not mean you have to pick up the ball and place it somewhere..

I was referring to the problem that person had using long irons and merely suggested ball position may be one of the factors to consider.


EDIT:
If I simply asked them to widen their stance they could have a wide stance with the ball in the centre, that would not have been good advice with this problem.

[jambalaya]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Jamb, With due respect I think you are incorrect with your criticism. Where the ball is positioned in the stance should be the same whatever system you use and the term "Positioned" is the accepted form, it does not mean you have to pick up the ball and place it somewhere..

I was referring to the problem that person had using long irons and merely suggested ball position may be one of the factors to consider.


EDIT:
If I simply asked them to widen their stance they could have a wide stance with the ball in the centre, that would not have been good advice with this problem.

I agree that the word "positioned" is the correct term but from the point of view of those in your audience who really know little about ball positioning in general I still think the information suffers in the translation. And of course we can't tell them just to widen their stance any more than we can tell them to simply "position" the ball more forward in their stance.

[BrianW]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

I agree that the word "positioned" is the correct term but from the point of view of those in your audience who really know little about ball positioning in general I still think the information suffers in the translation. And of course we can't tell them just to widen their stance any more than we can tell them to simply "position" the ball more forward in their stance.

Jamb,

The OP was a 10 handicapper, I would suggest he was capable of understanding my points.

Anyhow, I think we have exhausted the point.

[jambalaya]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

hi
this is more like how i play, you see the ball seems to be further back with my open stance.
cheers
bill

I am back again. This thread has really opened my eyes and I am determined to use some of the tips to get a better set up. I've been meaning to ask you why the differences between what Brian showed from Hogan's book and your stance. It basically seems you like an open stance. What is different about your swing that would have you do it that way?

[bill reed]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

hi Jambalaya
i use a very open stance and i swing down with an in to out swing and i don't turn my wrists over and i keep the face of the club open to square to square.
and with my in to out swing i come into the ball with my right elbow just in front of my right hip but at impact my elbow and arms move away from the body like I'm pushing them to the target and away from me and i don't swing around inside till the club head if about hip high.
the best way for you to see what i mean is to stand very open and put you right hand in your pocket and point your fingers of your left hand at the floor a few feet in front of you. swing back slow as normal but when you swing down but on a line to the target and watch the back of your left hand, it points to the target almost all the way and that how the club face looks and you still look square a good 6 inches past the ball.
hope you understand what i mean.
cheers
bill

[jambalaya]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Thanks for the reply bill. Sounds like you built a rather unique swing. I was just interested to see how your swing related to your setup.

[bill reed]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Thanks for the reply bill. Sounds like you built a rather unique swing. I was just interested to see how your swing related to your setup.

Hi
its not my swing but Lee Trevino's. i copied him and took some bits from Mindy Blake. been playing this way of and on for 30+ years so I know my swing well and i know my faults that creep in and how to fix them most of the time.
cheers
Bill

[dagosa]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

I'm killing myself with all the different information I've taken in on ball position in relation to left heel. I've read Jack Nicklaus book Golf My Way and he says you should play every shot with the ball off of the left heel. But I've been told you should move the ball back as the irons get shorter. I've been trying to do both with mixed results, I want to know what the majority of you out there are doing and what do most of the pros do? Any video or pictures would be great. Thanks again.

Here is what really works for me....
Got into this discussion late so sorry if it's been mentioned.....but when the ball is down, there is really no reason to "memorize" ball position relative to each club. The club was designed to be an extension of the lead arm. That arm position and the sole of the club set flat on the ground at address, the approximate location of the ball on a flat uncomplicated lie will be revealed varying only with change of ball flight requirements and difficulty of lie itself. IMO, anyone who plays the ball in the same position for every club, will soon find that a different swing will be needed for every club to make good contact.

Anyone who tries to memorize the location by club number will also experience frustration. Good players, have a feel for this location after years of correct positioning based on these general guidelines. Using these guidelines also helps understand the slight changes you have to make in varying wind conditions and difficult and uneven lies.

The club head tells you ball position..so I make golf a little less complicated for myself. When the ball is isn't down....it's a new ball game.

[bill reed]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Here is what really works for me....
Got into this discussion late so sorry if it's been mentioned.....but when the ball is down, there is really no reason to "memorize" ball position relative to each club. The club was designed to be an extension of the lead arm. That arm position and the sole of the club set flat on the ground at address, the approximate location of the ball on a flat uncomplicated lie will be revealed varying only with change of ball flight requirements and difficulty of lie itself. IMO, anyone who plays the ball in the same position for every club, will soon find that a different swing will be needed for every club to make good contact.

Anyone who tries to memorize the location by club number will also experience frustration. Good players, have a feel for this location after years of correct positioning based on these general guidelines. Using these guidelines also helps understand the slight changes you have to make in varying wind conditions and difficult and uneven lies.

The club head tells you ball position..so I make golf a little less complicated for myself. When the ball is isn't down....it's a new ball game.

Hi
just to add to what Dagosa has pointed out about the club telling you with the ball should lie in your stance, if you take any down swing it will have an (X-point) the point where the swing is no longer descending and before it starts ascending.
if you take a one iron the set up off the face will be about the X-point and the shaft comes back almost straight to your hands. if you then go to a five iron the shaft have more lean and this put the ball closer to you as the shaft is shorter but also back more in your stance and now you will find the impact is not at the X-point of the swing but back an inch or so and you will still be swing the club in a descending and forward swing when making contact with the ball and your hand are now more ahead of the club face.
if you then go to a nine iron the ball is closer to you still and also moves back more in the stance due to the lean forward of the shaft. the shorter shaft gives you a steeper down swing and you now hit the ball a good couple of inches behind the X-point. giving you a deeper divot than with a five iron and your hand are even more infront of the club face than with the five iron.
the movement of the ball back in the stance is as Dagosa said, due to the forward lean on the shaft and how it leans from almost vertical with the one iron to 30% with the nine iron.
cheers
bill

[dagosa]

Re: ball postion in relation to left heel.

Hi
just to add to what Dagosa has pointed out about the club telling you with the ball should lie in your stance, if you take any down swing it will have an (X-point) the point where the swing is no longer descending and before it starts ascending.
if you take a one iron the set up off the face will be about the X-point and the shaft comes back almost straight to your hands. if you then go to a five iron the shaft have more lean and this put the ball closer to you as the shaft is shorter but also back more in your stance and now you will find the impact is not at the X-point of the swing but back an inch or so and you will still be swing the club in a descending and forward swing when making contact with the ball and your hand are now more ahead of the club face.
if you then go to a nine iron the ball is closer to you still and also moves back more in the stance due to the lean forward of the shaft. the shorter shaft gives you a steeper down swing and you now hit the ball a good couple of inches behind the X-point. giving you a deeper divot than with a five iron and your hand are even more infront of the club face than with the five iron.
the movement of the ball back in the stance is as Dagosa said, due to the forward lean on the shaft and how it leans from almost vertical with the one iron to 30% with the nine iron.
cheers
bill

Exactly....and as we both have noted before, the need to hit down on the ball is as much dependent upon address and ball position. Hitting down with an incorrect ball position is a daunting and near impossible task. The club head has a better chance of performing it's task if you place it where it's designed and not where you want; then just go along for the ride. The pros are much more exact in address than the rest of us; a key to consistent contact and why many get so heavily involved in club design during and after their careers.