One-Plane Posture Question

[jambalaya]

From what i have read, a one-plane swing should be done with a more bent over posture than a two-plane. How far should one bend? What are the consequences of a too upright posture with a one plane swing?

[bill reed]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

hi
with to upright a posture you tend to have the arms swinging on a two plane swing.
you should try and aim to have your left arm in line with your shoulders on the backswing. check with a mirror to get this wright, with a two plane swing the left arm is swinging on a plane above the shoulder line and is more between the head and the shoulder line.
i found that i set up better when i used clubs with a flatter lie as the clubs had me bent the right amount, i dont know if its normal to go with flatter clubs if you want a one plane swing. maybe lowpost would be better at answering that one.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

From what i have read, a one-plane swing should be done with a more bent over posture than a two-plane. How far should one bend? What are the consequences of a too upright posture with a one plane swing?

A good question this. One that's had me puzzled too. Here's my take on it.

Surely Hogan has to be the ultimate low/one plane golf swing. But he stood to the ball tall. Little knee flex and little forward spine tilt with his hands higher at address. He was quite tall to the ball relative to his height.

To me, a low plane swing with a bent over posture just makes it a higher plane swing (but still one-plane, if you see what I mean).

To my way of thinking, posture is posture and we have a decision to make in regards to where our arms go in relation to our body. We could bend over more and swing the club more round our middle/chest (a la Hogan). The plane would be more upright, but in terms of where our club and arms are in relation to our body during the swing, that hasn't changed. However bending over a lot and having a higher arm swing may see us delve unintentionally into Furyk mode.

In summary, I think the only decision to be made once a player is happy with the address position is whether their arms and club go low or high in relation to that set up, then to learn the idiosyncrasies of the chosen method. Any problems may well come with trying to incorporate moves for one, when another method would better suit the posture.

A bit of a head-scratcher you've come up with here me thinks jambalaya. I couldn't say how far one should bend, and Hogan demonstrated the ideal one plane swing with an upright posture, so it got to be a matter of preference I guess??

[jambalaya]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

Well Neil, I have switched to a one plane swing but realized I had not really changed my posture. It was still as upright as it was before. What I finally realized, at least what I percieve, is that if one doesn't bend over more one has to lift the arms more to get them up to the shoulder plane. Surely this kind of defeats the purpose of going to a one plane swing. Unless you bend way over or extend your arms way out a la Moe Norman, you are going to have to lift your arms to get them to the shoulder plane. I had some problems with my swing on the course this week that may have arose because of this seeming conflict. I just want to know if I am thinking about it correctly. Bending over more seems to help with that underhand throwing action I am doing now. Bending over more means less lifting of the arms and maybe less possibility of getting out of sync. If I am too upright I have to reach down more or drop the club more. Once again, this seems to defeat the purpose of the one plane swing. And if you don't lift the arms enough one gets way inside and gets stuck. At least these are the thoughts going through my head.

[LowPost42]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

If you don't bend over more in a OPS, you tend to get your plane very flat, because you're not working your arms back down on the ball.

[Neil18]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

Hmmmmm.

It's got my brain whirring this one.

Again taking Hogan as the ultimate example, he never got his arms right on his shoulder plane regardless of what club he was using (I'm talking about his latter, most accurate swing from the 50's and 60's). He always seemed to be just below his shoulder plane with his right elbow staying low enabling his right forearm to be straight up and down at the top rather than matching his spine angle.

It seems to me during his younger days he had a higher plane with an upright stance and needed a violent body action to prevent getting stuck. When he moved his arm plane still lower with minimal lifting in the backswing, his hip shift developed to allow his right arm to fire from almost behind him through the ball in the punchy under-arm throwing action you are using. So he matched his arm action to his body action and posture.

His low arm action contributed to the seemingly rediculous amount of lag he got. For me, Hogan and Snead had very similar swing actions, the only differences being Snead got his arms up in the backswing and hence didn't need a monster hip-shift at the start of the downswing to give his arms room. And Snead was more bent over than Hogan, but used a more upright action.

I'll always look to Hogan as the ultimate low plane/one plane swing. He was upright to the ball through the bag.

I understand why being more bent over may be an advantage to a certain OPS action, but Hogan showed that a OPS can be done from an upright position, and Snead a higher action from a more bent over posture. Just gotta match the arm action to the posture and body action.

Jamb - an interesting point you make about bending over more: "if one doesn't bend over more one has to lift the arms to get them up to the shoulder plane"

I'm getting confused now. If you bend over more, are you not increasing the angle/tilt of the shoulder plane forward and hence to match it, your arms must go higher?

Wowzers. I'm talking myself into and out of all sorts on this one!

[BrianW]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

With a one plane swing you will be setting your arms and the club to swing more around your body on your spine axis. To do this you will need to bend forward with each club such that at address the shaft is set perpendicular to your spine.

This picture is a Moe Norman type one plane setup where the arms and club are preset on the same plane that they will return to at impact. In general all one plane swings will have the spine bent over more than a one plane and the hands further away from the body at address.

[BrianW]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

Hmmmmm.
I'm getting confused now. If you bend over more, are you not increasing the angle/tilt of the shoulder plane forward and hence to match it, your arms must go higher?

Wowzers. I'm talking myself into and out of all sorts on this one!

Neil,

A two plane swing takes the club back on the impact plane to the halfway point, the arms then have to be lifted higher so that at the top they are on a much steeper plane than address. If you were to slacken your wrists at the top the shaft would strike you around the middle of your shoulder.

In a one plane swing you bend more to set your spine 90 deg to the swing plane, you now rotate your arms more around your spine angle, there is a little lifting of the arms but the angle set with the club at address is maintained. It is not possible with this swing to get the arms higher than the plane of the shoulders at the top. If the club was dropped again it would strike the tip of your shoulder.

I hope this helps to explain.

[Neil18]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

I guess we're talking about two different models here.

I prefer to look at Hogan, whereas the photo above is modelled on Norman, a swing I know almost nothing about.

To me the shaft still doesn't look perpendicular to the spine though. The guy in the photo needs to bend over more for 90 degrees of difference. And although one plane, it's a high plane in comparison the Hogans. Which is why I prefer to use low and high plane rather than the traditional sense of one or two planes. I guess Normans was the only true one plane swing.

[bill reed]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

hi Neil
i think Moe was the only true one plane swinger and i have often wondered if his clubs were more upright to get the arms in line with the shaft. i know my old ping black spot standard lie end up on the toe of the club if i try and set up like Moe. when i use to use the black spot pings i had a two plane swing but when i changed to the orange code and to 2 degrees flatter i went to a one plane swing and it happened with trying to set up that way to the lie of the clubs. i asked the club pro about it and he said it was the lie change of the clubs that put me in a one plane setup.
i did ask lowpost about it as he knows more about setting up clubs than i do and he did say the club lie could change you to a one plane swinger.
with the flatter clubs i bent over about 2 inches more and my hands are under my nose and eyes. with the two plane swing i stand taller and my hands are more under my chin.
the set up is down to the lie of the clubs and not of any real changes i make. i also swing much better with the newer flatter clubs and a one plane swing and its more a swing the way hogan swings it is a low flat swing and i tend to sweep into the ball more than come steeply down into the back of the ball as i seemed to do before.
maybe lowpost can shed more light onto why the lie can change your swing from a two plane to a one plane as he is the best man that knows about club fitting on here.
cheers
bill

[ReefBoy]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

G'day Herb,

The consequence of mixing one and two plane swing styles, according to Jim Hardy, is an inconsistent striking of the ball. This is exactly what I wrestled with for about 6 months(thanks to the golf pro who taught me the basics for 3 months) until Jim hardy's book "The plane truth for golfers" sorted me out, big time. Since reading the book, I am striking more consistently, with less effort and lots more distance.

Anyway basic configuration for a one plane swing.

Weight balanced on feet with wide stance.
Bend at the hips approx 30-45 degrees.
Ball position is where the club head meets the ball with the arms hanging in a vertical position.
The swing plane is generated by an axial rotation of the torso around the spine.

Here is a link to the forum for Jim Hardy's ideas. Very good site, worth checking out.

http://www.jimhardygolf.com/Forums/t...7/Default.aspx

Christopher

[jambalaya]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

If you don't bend over more in a OPS, you tend to get your plane very flat, because you're not working your arms back down on the ball.

Exactly my problem this weekend I am pretty sure.

[jambalaya]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

With a one plane swing you will be setting your arms and the club to swing more around your body on your spine axis. To do this you will need to bend forward with each club such that at address the shaft is set perpendicular to your spine.
This picture is a Moe Norman type one plane setup where the arms and club are preset on the same plane that they will return to at impact. In general all one plane swings will have the spine bent over more than a one plane and the hands further away from the body at address.

Your statement above is the one with which I have always had a problem. Most people when describing the one plane swing use it so I am not picking on you. I have seen many photos of one plane swingers at address from down the line and not one of them had their arms perpendicular to their spine at address. Closer to perpendicular than if one had an upright posture but definitely not perpendicular. Therefore it is my contention that even in the one plane swing many players lift their arms a bit. Norman is an abberation. He is very close to perpendiclar with his arms. I do agree, more bent over and hands further away at address something I was not doing at all.

Hold on a moment. I just noticed something with your statement. Your said the "shaft" perpendicular to the spine which is a different statement than having your arms perpendicular to the spine. So you are not really saying what I claim. Are the arms not aligned with the shaft?

[jambalaya]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

hi Neil
i think Moe was the only true one plane swinger and i have often wondered if his clubs were more upright to get the arms in line with the shaft. i know my old ping black spot standard lie end up on the toe of the club if i try and set up like Moe. when i use to use the black spot pings i had a two plane swing but when i changed to the orange code and to 2 degrees flatter i went to a one plane swing and it happened with trying to set up that way to the lie of the clubs. i asked the club pro about it and he said it was the lie change of the clubs that put me in a one plane setup.
i did ask lowpost about it as he knows more about setting up clubs than i do and he did say the club lie could change you to a one plane swinger.
with the flatter clubs i bent over about 2 inches more and my hands are under my nose and eyes. with the two plane swing i stand taller and my hands are more under my chin.
the set up is down to the lie of the clubs and not of any real changes i make. i also swing much better with the newer flatter clubs and a one plane swing and its more a swing the way hogan swings it is a low flat swing and i tend to sweep into the ball more than come steeply down into the back of the ball as i seemed to do before.
maybe lowpost can shed more light onto why the lie can change your swing from a two plane to a one plane as he is the best man that knows about club fitting on here.
cheers
bill

Yeah, thought about this apect too. Do I need to get my lie angle changed on my clubs now?

[ReefBoy]

Re: One-Plane Posture Question

Your statement above is the one with which I have always had a problem. Most people when describing the one plane swing use it so I am not picking on you. I have seen many photos of one plane swingers at address from down the line and not one of them had their arms perpindicular to their spine at address. Closer to perpindicular than if one had an upright posture but definitely not perpindicular. Therefore it is my contention that even in the one plane swing many players lift their arms a bit. Norman is an abberation. He is very close to perpindiclar with his arms. I do agree, more bent over and hands further away at address something I was not doing at all.

I just noticed something with your statement. Your said the "shaft" perpindicular to the ball. Are the arms not aligned with the shaft?

What Jim Hardy talks about is the arms hang vertically at address for a pure OPS (not really many of those). If you drew a line at the shoulder at right angle to the spinal angle, then drew another line following the club shaft they should be parallel to each other.

The swing path is around the axis of the spine with the club shaft angle at address, not the angle joining the shoulders to the club head.

Is this clear or do you want me to give some more detail?

Christopher