Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

[koonl]

Hi all, after 7 years playing, I'm finally starting to learn how to create a gentle draw. For those of you who have already this skill, I have a question: When coming through impact, assuming correct swing path, does a natural release of the clubhead take care of the draw? In other words, assuming that I am releasing the clubhead without problems, should I work on my swing path coming into the ball, and then the draw will automatically take place? The reason I ask is because I am wondering whether I should be working on both the path and clubhead release. At the moment, I'm getting all sorts of results, such as pushes and hooks, but I don't know whether I'm swinging too much from the inside or rolling the arms too quickly or a combination of the two.

Does a natural draw come from the clubface being slightly closed at impact, or is it square and then starts to close from there as the clubhead returns back to the inside?

Thanks

[Neil18]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

You've touched upon the details in your own post here koonl.

Pushing and hooking are results from the same swing path. Well from the inside either with a late release and holding the face off (block) or too much flipping through impact closing it down (hook).

By all means come from the inside, but "only just from the inside" is good enough. Then you won't have to fight to hold it off or turn it over. Random results will insue, depending on how many beers you've had the night before!

A slightly inside swingpath with a square clubface will produce the gentle draw you're after. Even a slightly closed face at impact will see a big ol' hook if approaching from the inside or a pull hook if out-in.

Strive to have your clubface aiming where you want teh ball to finish at impact. Swing path is then the only thing you need to change to shape the ball.

Having said that there's a massive thread on here somewhere where there's some well supported evidence to suggest the the clubface alignment dictates more of the shot shape than swingpath, along with details of varying clubface angles related to approach angles. Not my school of thought, but worth a read.

I prefer keeping it simple. Aim at your target, swing slightly in-out or slightly out-in depending on the shape you want.

[BrianW]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

What is the problem to which a draw is the solution?

[GoNavy]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

What is the problem to which a draw is the solution?

Aahh...the last three holes of the US Open...lol...go Rocko

[Neil18]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

What is the problem to which a draw is the solution?

A: How to decide who plays who in the next round of the cup.

[koonl]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

You've touched upon the details in your own post here koonl.

Pushing and hooking are results from the same swing path. Well from the inside either with a late release and holding the face off (block) or too much flipping through impact closing it down (hook).

By all means come from the inside, but "only just from the inside" is good enough. Then you won't have to fight to hold it off or turn it over. Random results will insue, depending on how many beers you've had the night before!

A slightly inside swingpath with a square clubface will produce the gentle draw you're after. Even a slightly closed face at impact will see a big ol' hook if approaching from the inside or a pull hook if out-in.

Strive to have your clubface aiming where you want teh ball to finish at impact. Swing path is then the only thing you need to change to shape the ball.

Having said that there's a massive thread on here somewhere where there's some well supported evidence to suggest the the clubface alignment dictates more of the shot shape than swingpath, along with details of varying clubface angles related to approach angles. Not my school of thought, but worth a read.

I prefer keeping it simple. Aim at your target, swing slightly in-out or slightly out-in depending on the shape you want.

Thanks for the reply. It's what I wanted to hear, with the swing being complicated enough as it is. I can see from my down-the-line video that my clubhead is behind the plane line by about 4 inches half way down, which will explain my hooks and pushes. I am having to really emphasis the arms coming in more from the inside and holding my right shoulder back. I might get a hook or push, but if I get lazy and don't emphasis this, I then go out-to-in. I'd rather not think about it at all, but let it all happen. For this to happen, I guess the back swing needs to be in a good position for the arms to just drop down into the "slot" on the way down. I hear a lot of people advising to swing the left arm back in line with the target more so that it has enough room to drop inside. A recent lesson from a pro also said to swing as if I'm doing a half swing shot, and this will allow the clubhead to come down with plenty of room. However, all this feels as if the clubhead is way too outside the line and I fear coming over the top on the way down. Should I feel that I re-route the clubhead inside on the way down, or should the correct hip action automatically bring this inside to square to inside?

[Neil18]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

Thanks for the reply. It's what I wanted to hear, with the swing being complicated enough as it is. I can see from my down-the-line video that my clubhead is behind the plane line by about 4 inches half way down, which will explain my hooks and pushes. I am having to really emphasis the arms coming in more from the inside and holding my right shoulder back. I might get a hook or push, but if I get lazy and don't emphasis this, I then go out-to-in. I'd rather not think about it at all, but let it all happen. For this to happen, I guess the back swing needs to be in a good position for the arms to just drop down into the "slot" on the way down. I hear a lot of people advising to swing the left arm back in line with the target more so that it has enough room to drop inside. A recent lesson from a pro also said to swing as if I'm doing a half swing shot, and this will allow the clubhead to come down with plenty of room. However, all this feels as if the clubhead is way too outside the line and I fear coming over the top on the way down. Should I feel that I re-route the clubhead inside on the way down, or should the correct hip action automatically bring this inside to square to inside?

In my recent experience, a decent backswing should give you a lot of room to swing down into the ball, and as long as your hips don't go toward the ball in the downswing, that room should be maintained and you'll have plenty of room to swing from the inside without rerouting or manipulating the club.

Keep your posture all the way through the swing. I think a lot of OTT swings come from standing up during the downswing, so then the golfer starts to feel as though he reroutes the club inside (more behind him) to stop the OTT. In actual fact this puts the clubhead behind/under the hands, hence you get your particular shot pattern. Check it on your vid. Draw a line behind your butt. If there's a gap emerging during your downswing, you're losing posture.

Whatever posture you start with, keep it til well after the ball's gone.

Re the backswing, just keep your upper left arm connected to your left pec. Do'nt start swinging more down/outside the line with your arms in order to give yourself room to drop inside. You'd be half-solving one problem, but creating 10 more.

[BrianW]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

A: How to decide who plays who in the next round of the cup.

OK, OK Guys!!! let me rephrase "What is the problem to which hitting a draw is the solution?"

[Neil18]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

OK, OK Guys!!! let me rephrase "What is the problem to which hitting a draw is the solution?"

Not being able to:

hit into the wind without having to club-up four times, stop balooning shots, get penetration, keep it low, get it round that damn tree/clubhouse/lorry, hold it into the slope, draw it for brownie points, stop the left to right crosswind turning a fade into a huge slice, get to a pin tucked on the left from the left side of the fairway...................

I know what you're getting at Bri! I'm just playin'!

[BrianW]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

Not being able to:

hit into the wind without having to club-up four times, stop balooning shots, get penetration, keep it low, get it round that damn tree/clubhouse/lorry, hold it into the slope, draw it for brownie points, stop the left to right crosswind turning a fade into a huge slice, get to a pin tucked on the left from the left side of the fairway...................

I know what you're getting at Bri! I'm just playin'!

I'm not suggesting that the ability to shape shots is unimportant, I am trying to understand why so many people want to hit a draw as a standard shot and wish to focus much attention on that when maybe their general game is not in good shape.

IMO a high handicap player would do better to keep away from complications like facing off target, manipulating the wrists, swinging in-to-out etc. I think Neil's comment on "draw it for brownie points" is more of an incentive in may cases. "KISS" should be the watchword for most players.

[Neil18]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

I'm not suggesting that the ability to shape shots is unimportant, I am trying to understand why so many people want to hit a draw as a standard shot and wish to focus much attention on that when maybe their general game is not in good shape.

IMO a high handicap player would do better to keep away from complications like facing off target, manipulating the wrists, swinging in-to-out etc. I think Neil's comment on "draw it for brownie points" is more of an incentive in may cases. "KISS" should be the watchword for most players.

I think it's human nature isn't it? We always want to learn something new so tomorrow's different from today, and so we can be better.

There is, however, a time and a place.

"KISS"? Keep It Simple...........????....dunno what the other S is for!

[BrianW]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

I think it's human nature isn't it? We always want to learn something new so tomorrow's different from today, and so we can be better.

There is, however, a time and a place.

"KISS"? Keep It Simple...........????....dunno what the other S is for!

"Keep It Simple Stupid" Not meant as an insult to anyone, that's the acronym as I know it.

Yes Neil, there is a time and a place: crawl, stand, walk, run.

[koonl]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

I'm not suggesting that the ability to shape shots is unimportant, I am trying to understand why so many people want to hit a draw as a standard shot and wish to focus much attention on that when maybe their general game is not in good shape.

IMO a high handicap player would do better to keep away from complications like facing off target, manipulating the wrists, swinging in-to-out etc. I think Neil's comment on "draw it for brownie points" is more of an incentive in may cases. "KISS" should be the watchword for most players.

I've been plagued with a straight shot, which then turns right, right, right, RIGHT, RIGHT as it reaches the peak of it's flight. This is the same as my driver and other long clubs. It's about time that I up my level and stop missing greens now. A lot of people can't believe I'm a mid-handicapper with my swing, and say I swing more like a single figured handicapper. I know that this fault is the key for me in getting greens in regulations more and finally stop (or reduce) coming OTT. With a draw, it's proof of the pudding that I have come in from the inside, a rare occurence for me. I've just come back from the range and I've managed to pull off more draws then I have in a year! I'm also using both my arms and body to lift the arms up in the backswing so that the arm plane is steeper, above the shoulder line, so that the butt of the club points at the ball, and this immediately resulted in a draw that starts off to the right and gently starts turning back before it reaches the top...what a wonderful sight!

Thanks to Neil18 for advising not to think about the rolling of the wrists, but more of the swing path.

I have also found that drawing the ball deliberatly, say around an obstacle, is much easier when the body is closed in relation to the clubhead. Previously, my OTT action would just be negated when trying for a draw, so an even bigger draw would have been impossible. My divots are much more shallower too, and I am able to keep the ball on the fairway/green more.

So hitting a draw is the solution for me. Maybe not for everyone, but has stopped shots leaking out to the right, missing the green for a two (or one) putt.

One last question - I've been using MP-32s and MP-33s for a very long while - are these clubs more sensitive to the swing path errors than say Callaway X-20s? In other words, assuming the same amount of release, if I deviated from a "normal" swing path into the ball with a Mizuno blade, would the result be far greater than a game improvement club? Thanks all

[kbp]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

A small draw is a good shot shape for learning a proper swing because it is consistent with the elements of a simple, efficient and fundamentally solid swing, that is, striking the ball at the outer point of the swing arc (before the club starts back in) with a basically square club face.

Other shot shapes are useful on the course and frequently "better" for conditions or situations, or even as a good players "stock" shot, but they require deviation from what is inherently natural and efficient given the physics of the motion.

[BrianW]

Re: Natural draw - is clubface square or slightly close at impact?

Sounds like you have sorted it. Well done.

I was not suggesting that you should not hit a draw, I was more concerned that you were struggling with consistency and considering manipulations with your wrists and stance to fix them and that could have created more inconsistencies. I think you now understand that making good ball contact will produce the results you desire.