Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

[redsox]

Could someone please discuss the difference in swing instruction between these two great instructors?
They both advocate using arms vs body to lead the swing.
Thanks

[CanOfCorn]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

They're wrong.

Sincerely,

Ben Hogan

[bdbl]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

They're wrong.

Sincerely,

Ben Hogan

I'm sure Gary player who The British Open in 1974 after visits to King, Michael Bonallack, who won 5 British Amateur Championships after having his swing reshaped by King and Julie Inkster, the American LPGA player and LPGA hall of fame inductee, who also had her swing rebuilt by King who all agree that he was wrong.

I don't know what the difference between the two coaches is Redsox but I would suggest that you take CanoCorns comment with a large pinch of salt and examine the record of the guys before dismissing them.

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

It does not matter a fishes tit what leads the swing as long as it stays on plane.

To completely dismiss the theories of respected professional coaches like the aforementioned it needs more than a single liner, please educate us as to why they are wrong?

De La Torre based his teachings on those of Ernest Jones. Jones believed (as do many others) that you should not fight the swinging action of the club, rather react to it. I sometimes think the 3Skills system has a lot in common with those of Jones. His pocket knife on a handkerchief drill was something we should all consider.

Here is a site that gives a good overview of the man and his methods.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...468870,00.html

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

I do not know much about King's teaching methods, but de la Torre's method (which is in line with Earnest Jones's swing method) has served me quite well for better than 50 years. I lead with my hands, and arms in my down swing. They don't lead by much, but I do start my down swing by dropping my hands towards the "slot". In my case it helps me to maintain my wrist cock longer prior to impacting the ball. I might venture a guess that the hands/arms leading the down swing is old school where as the hands/arms following is the new modern swing method. Both will work for some, but not for others. Which ever method is used, it is mho that hands/arms need to deliver the club head to the proper impact position. GJS

[redsox]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

It appears that this thread should really be not about the two teachers, but about arm swing vs larger muscle body swing.
What does everyone think?

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

OK, I am of the opinion that the arms and hands should control the swing and generate power, the torso and legs should support that action. Much the same as Leslie King, De La Torre and Ernest Jones (plus many more). I do not support the X factor, the belief that the legs and hips are prime speed generators or the arms being passive.

[jbrunk]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

For the masses, I agree with Can of Corn, they're wrong. With that said, there is a difference between feel and real. For example, in my swing, I don't think about or (feel) my body doing anything at any point, but clearly my torso and hips go first when you put me on video.

I do not think it is best to tell an amatuer or beginner that the body responds to the movement of the hands. I can move my hands an arms easily without moving my lower half, but I certainly can not keep the hands and arms still while moving the body.

When in doubt, look at the greatest players that have ever played the game.

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

For the masses, I agree with Can of Corn, they're wrong. With that said, there is a difference between feel and real. For example, in my swing, I don't think about or (feel) my body doing anything at any point, but clearly my torso and hips go first when you put me on video.

I do not think it is best to tell an amatuer or beginner that the body responds to the movement of the hands. I can move my hands an arms easily without moving my lower half, but I certainly can not keep the hands and arms still while moving the body.

When in doubt, look at the greatest players that have ever played the game.

That's not what I or those coaches are saying. I do not say that the lower body does not move, I said it supports the swing of the arms and shoulders. The lower body supports and reacts naturally to the swinging motion, it needs no real thought process. If you were to swing an axe at a tree or a large hammer into a nail your torso and legs will automatically rotate and stabilise the motion, it's no different with the golf swing. Only the arms and hands can swing the club on plane, make solid contact with the ball and create suitable headspeed, the lower body is not capable of these actions.

If the masses could be taught more this way we would (IMHO) have a golfing community that was able to make some progress verses the current poor standards, confusion and low handicaps that prevail due to so many golfing myths.

[redsox]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

I played college baseball at LSU. I am a good athlete. I am only an average golfer. I think there has to be a good mix. Some teachers are arms and some teachers are body. I definitely think you need more arm swing because you then have feel. You are more in control. With a body swing, there seems to be more stiff of a swing. Too much tension. If you put 10 balls on tees in a line a few steps apart and walk down the line hitting the balls, you would be able to see the arm swinging controlling the body. If you could create the same feel on the course, you would hit consistent solid shots. Obviously you need to do other things also like spine angle, etc.
I am sure a lot of people have a wide variety of opinions on this subject.

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

I played college baseball at LSU. I am a good athlete. I am only an average golfer. I think there has to be a good mix. Some teachers are arms and some teachers are body. I definitely think you need more arm swing because you then have feel. You are more in control. With a body swing, there seems to be more stiff of a swing. Too much tension. If you put 10 balls on tees in a line a few steps apart and walk down the line hitting the balls, you would be able to see the arm swinging controlling the body. If you could create the same feel on the course, you would hit consistent solid shots. Obviously you need to do other things also like spine angle, etc.
I am sure a lot of people have a wide variety of opinions on this subject.

Redsox, good post. You are on the way to understanding the golf swing.

[Neil18]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

To debate which part of the body or limbs has the most control/power/speed is to become hopelessly involved and open to interpretation. We can discover all the right and wrong answers only to find that to someone else, the wrong answers are the right ones.

It's an arm swing coupled with a body turn and weight shift. To get all three right and complimenting each other to produce power and precision takes time, patience and practice as well as guidance.

I don't think it serves much purpose to know which part of the body produces the most power or speed. When it's all in synch, we can't tell the difference anyway when we're in full flight. Ironically, the time when we can't tell which body part did what and we boom one down the middle, is the time it all went right.

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

Keep your hands in the middle of your shoulders through most of your swing is the best advice I can offer anyone.

[CanOfCorn]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

my thoughts on it is like a baseball player. does a pitcher throw with his arm or his body? he throws with his arm/hand. his body does move, but it supports the movement of the arm it doesn't make the arm move. and the legs support the body.

First let me say that my initial comment upthread was only meant to produce a few laughs. Any student of the golf swing knows that Hogan proposed that the lower body should move first.

Regarding the baseball pitcher; he throws with his body and directs the force with his arm and hand. This is exactly how I envision the perfect golf swing. I concentrate on turning the hips and letting my arms and wrists follow. In my experience, if I try to lead with the arms, I end up getting too active with the arms, wrists, and hands and bring them across the body too much.

Someone mentioned earlier that it does not matter a "fish's tit" what leads as long as it is on plane. I agree with this statement. For me, it is easier to stay on plane if I start with the lower body.

[BrianW]

Re: Manuel de la Torre vs Leslie King

First let me say that my initial comment upthread was only meant to produce a few laughs. Any student of the golf swing knows that Hogan proposed that the lower body should move first.

Regarding the baseball pitcher; he throws with his body and directs the force with his arm and hand. This is exactly how I envision the perfect golf swing. I concentrate on turning the hips and letting my arms and wrists follow. In my experience, if I try to lead with the arms, I end up getting too active with the arms, wrists, and hands and bring them across the body too much.

Someone mentioned earlier that it does not matter a "fish's tit" what leads as long as it is on plane. I agree with this statement. For me, it is easier to stay on plane if I start with the lower body.

I think this has got a little confused, I don't think the debate is whether the hips or arms move first. King considered that a good golf swing relied on a free and uninhibited swing of the left arm, De la Torre and Ernest Jones considered that the swinging motion of the club was the best way to execute the swing. None of them say that the hips, legs, torso and shoulders do not take an active part, they rather suggest that they move in anticipation and reaction to the swing of the arms.

I cannot understand why so much emphasis gets placed on the way the hips, torso and legs are used in golf, I honestly believe that this has been the bain of the learning process and the culprit of creating so much confusion and erraticism.

In no other similar skill or sport is so much attention given to the movement of the body, normally this takes care of it's self. OK, learning posture, grip and balance is necessary, beyond that the most important skill is that of manipulating the club so that it can swing properly into the ball on plane and with suitable force for the shot in hand. Only the arms and hands can control these skills so need the focus of the learning process.

In Baseball, Tennis, Squash, Cricket, Table tennis, the ball and the object to strike it has the focus, the body if left to it's own actions will work out what to do.