Distance Question

[bill reed]

Re: Distance Question

hi Brian
if you swing a weight on a piece of string and then make the string short you don't make the weight go faster, think of a record spinning! does the middle spin faster than the outside no it travels at 33 rpm but what you do find is the further out you go the more it travels in the same time.
i see what you mean with the dropping of the elbow and do understand that and how it changes the the angle of the grip and head of the club but i see the wrists more as a hinge and i don't see the the hands slowing but trying to swing faster through impact and the hinge adds the added speed to the club head.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

hi Brian
if you swing a weight on a piece of string and then make the string short you don't make the weight go faster, think of a record spinning! does the middle spin faster than the outside no it travels at 33 rpm but what you do find is the further out you go the more it travels in the same time.
i see what you mean with the dropping of the elbow and do understand that and how it changes the the angle of the grip and head of the club but i see the wrists more as a hinge and i don't see the the hands slowing but trying to swing faster through impact and the hinge adds the added speed to the club head.
cheers
bill

Bill, I think you are getting too detailed here. When I talk about the hands I am also talking about the wrists and their hinge.

I did not suggest that a shorter string makes the weight travel faster. I suggested that if the inner circle is small the outer travels fast, if the inner circle is large the outer is slower, the string stays the same length.

I don't think you are following my reasoning. If the hands and arms (Inner circle) continue to swing through impact in a large arc or circle then the outer circle will also move slowly, just like the string(many people have this problem due to a belief they should swing their arms down the line towards the target). If they are pulled into a tight small circle through impact the outer circle of the clubhead will be accelerated at high speed.

Bill, please look at the video, it explains and shows you perfectly how it works. Give it a go! what do you have to lose?

[TeachingPro]

Re: Distance Question

I thought the first post in the thread was a little off and typical "how do they do it?".

Um, I don't want to put a dampner on the post but firstly:
(1) Lorena doesn't drive 290 yards. Her average for the year is only 270 yards and she is the second longest driver on the LPGA Tour in 2008. Here is a link to her LPGA page: http://www.lpga.com/player_results.aspx?id=519

The 270 yards collates to a swing speed of around 90-95mph and a carry of around 240 yards + 10% roll = 270 yards. That makes sense and whats more, that sort of swing speed matches up to her shaft (Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana Blue Board 53 S).

(2) If she does hit the odd 290 yarder, bear in mind that the LPGA fairways are cut very tight, much like most courses greens and the bounce and roll is FAR more that what the average golfer would get.


From personal experience, on an average course like my home course my driving distance is in the late 260's/mid 270's. When I play in tournaments, it jumps to the mid 280's - all because the fairways are a lot harder and closely mown. I've even hit the off 300+ yarder and I'm only 5ft10 and weigh 150lbs with a swing speed of 100mph.

So, how does she do it? When she does "do it", she does by hitting the ball exactly on the sweetspot as she normally does and she gets a lot of roll on the pro fairways.

I like the thread by the way and don't let me stop the thread because what everyone is contributing all makes sense and all good theory to hit the ball farther.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

I thought the first post in the thread was a little off and typical "how do they do it?".

Um, I don't want to put a dampner on the post but firstly:
(1) Lorena doesn't drive 290 yards. Her average for the year is only 270 yards and she is the second longest driver on the LPGA Tour in 2008. Here is a link to her LPGA page: http://www.lpga.com/player_results.aspx?id=519

The 270 yards collates to a swing speed of around 90-95mph and a carry of around 240 yards + 10% roll = 270 yards. That makes sense and whats more, that sort of swing speed matches up to her shaft (Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana Blue Board 53 S).

(2) If she does hit the odd 290 yarder, bear in mind that the LPGA fairways are cut very tight, much like most courses greens and the bounce and roll is FAR more that what the average golfer would get.


From personal experience, on an average course like my home course my driving distance is in the late 260's/mid 270's. When I play in tournaments, it jumps to the mid 280's - all because the fairways are a lot harder and closely mown. I've even hit the off 300+ yarder and I'm only 5ft10 and weigh 150lbs with a swing speed of 100mph.

So, how does she do it? When she does "do it", she does by hitting the ball exactly on the sweetspot as she normally does and she gets a lot of roll on the pro fairways.

I like the thread by the way and don't let me stop the thread because what everyone is contributing all makes sense and all good theory to hit the ball farther.

Well put Graham and nice to see you on the board again.

[TeachingPro]

Re: Distance Question

Thanks Brian, its great to be back and active again on GTO.

Far too many amateurs compare stats to the pros without taking all the environmental factors into account. Their courses and ours are VERY different and the equipment is very different too.

I often tell amateur partners or students if they want to compare driving stats, take the tour stats and compare them to your drives on a hard summer-baked fairway with almost no grass and lots of roll. That'll be a more accurate comparison.

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

If you watch the video I attached from Geoff Ritter you will see his explanation of how a wider circle with the hands moving down the line through impact will slow the clubface. How narrowing the circle of the hands and whipping the club through impact by retracting the left elbow into an imaginary plane of glass will create additional power. Is that clear?


This is my take on this interesting thread.

I see there are people who have real difficulty accepting this concept, because they can't see how slowing the hands could possibly speed the clubhead. They figure the faster the hands move through the impact area and down the line, surely, the faster the club speed.

However, in the effort to come into the delivery position (with the shaft at hip height and pointing down the line and the hands still cocked and almost even with the ball), with the intent of having the hands continue to speed down the line, the clubhead cannnot speed appreciably faster than the hands. It's the change in direction of the hands moving in and around, which in effect "slows" them, and creates the "snap the whip" acceleration of the club head from the delivery position through impact. Ritter's drill of retracting the elbow is to make the hands make that change of direction, instead of going down the line.

I think I struggled with this one for a long time, when I would try to emulate the rotated extended arms action of a Fred Couples or Mickelson, at the hip high through swing position. I thought I could only accomplish this by swinging as fast as I could down the line. This just leads to early release and muscling of the club, instead of acceleration.

This takes me back to another golf instructor, someone like Shankland I think it was, who years ago described a similar concept. Set up in your stance, with no club. Take your backswing, taking only the right arm to the top of the backswing, leaving the left arm in front of you. Make your forward swing to the impact position, bringing your right hand to sharply slap the left hand, which is still in front of you. Once this impact is made, take the body and arms to a full followthough.

Ted

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

Oh, I should clarify that the express purpose of the drill was that Shankland said it was to give the idea that the left hand "stops" (I suppose he means its forward motion).

I realize this concept could be wide open to critique, and I'm not one to get into a verbal joust defending it. I'm only stating it as a somewhat reinforcing concept to Ritter's drill.

[cyc53870]

Re: Distance Question

I think we need to hit a thousand balls daily just like some pros do and barring any injuries, we might increase power/distance?

[kbp]

Re: Distance Question

Many have tried and many have failed.

[pnearn]

Re: Distance Question

It has to be technique. But what specific technique? Something to do with timing and physics no doubt. Can it be readily taught and learned? Apparently not. I am angry. Why is this technique such a big hidden secret in golf? Perhaps the technique can not be learned? Is it only for a talented few?

Its is technique and its technique used properly.

If you just stand and swing the hands/arms/body with no coil/reistance you wont have power. Theres a reason people talk about a coiled spring, or lower body resistance. Next time you setup, kick your right knee in a little at address to get the weight on the inside of your right foot. As you swing back feel the inside of your right leg resist the backswing from the inside of the right foot, right the way up the inside of the right leg. Some people feel at as a turn around the insider of the right knee, others say screw you right foot into the groud

What you'll find is that theres probably no way you can swing past 3/4 of the way back and when you do you will really feel it. It will feel uncomfortable. You then use that resitance as a springboard to push off in the DS. Now you have body speed and arm/hand speed = more distance. Now you just have to learn to control it!

The reason people like Ochoa hit it so far is that they are flexible and strong enough to swing a long way back whilst still keeping that resistance. Most of us get 3/4 back with resistance and thats all we can get - then you have to make sure you dont try to find it some other way by collapsing the wrists etc. Keep that left arm straight and wide (extensor action)

Just my 2c

[welshy]

Re: Distance Question

Great thread. I have just got back to the game (in the last month) after a 10 year absence - still young though! - but a late starter also, alas. Brian I haven't tried it yet with the swing thought in my head but will do so at the range - your advice and comments have been (I think) a light bulb moment for me - always played squash very well and with max power by killing my hands (not the inertia) at impact - never made the jump to golf in swing dynamics - gee I wish I had the week off!

Thanks again Brian

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: Distance Question

Hi Guys,
I can relate to what Graham has mentioned regarding driving distances and fairways closely mown. Last week I had the pleasure of playing Royal Birkdale. The fairways are totally different to normal parkland courses that I have played in the UK, obviously links courses are a different breed in themselves. They were hard and very short, in beautiful condition. On holes were the wind was not a factor you got tremendous roll, much more than you would get on your average course, another factor was the Tee boxes. You were actualy playing off tees which were better than the greens at my local course.They were level.I find on your average course like my home course the tee boxes are not level so surely you are handicapped from the start and it has an effect on the direction of the ball. I know this is off topic but the greens at Birkdale were fabulous. I found that it was much easier to putt at Birkdale. You simply got a perfect roll. The ball stuck to the greens none of this bobbling up and down, perfect roll. It was so easy to putt.You were always confident of holing out from 8 feet in.One thing which really surprised me was the break in the greens. There was very little break,apart from the 17th which was ridiculous. I found that chipping from off the green was much easier. The cut was like a green in itself, no bald patches.
I think it is far easier to play these courses than you would think. They are in top condition compared to your average course. I think this applies to all courses on tour. They are in great condition.I had a great time but it opened up my eyes in relation to quality of course / how you perform. I played really well, the putting was fabulous which in my opinion was due to the quality of the greens.I can put hand on heart and say that out of all the courses I have played in the UK , Birkdale was far easier to putt on simply because you are putting on quality grass.
When it comes down to tour players they have the best of all worlds,in many cases lucrative sponsorship deals, great equipment matched to there swings and top courses to play on.

Bogeygolfer.

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: Distance Question

Just one other observation re Birkdale which I failed to mention and this is totally off topic. I swear blind the cups were larger than any course I have played, they definately seemed 1/2 inch larger. Now I could be wrong here guys, but I am sure those cups were larger.

Bogeygolfer.

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: Distance Question

I am still convinced the cups were larger than standard. I have discussed this with many people and taken into account that the cups were brilliant white and new and could therefore cause a sort of optical illusion, but no I am certain they were larger. I will be playing a comp soon at a course which is close to Birkdale, I am going to go back there and physically measure the cups.I am absolutely sure they were larger than standard IMO.
Any thought from you guys.

Bogeygolfer

[LowPost42]

Re: Distance Question

I think brilliant white and painted to the top give a bigger illusion than sunk into the ground and a turf line at the top of a 2 year old cup.