Distance Question

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

Tim,

As usual a nice articulate reply and I respect you for that.

My opinion is that active rotational hips are a major contributor to creating an over-the-top move, early spinning hips tend to throw out the trail shoulder.

If the mind is focused on delivering the clubhead to the ball on an inside path that makes contact at the widest point of the arc then travels back inside again then our body will respond perfectly to the desired action. Our hips, shoulders, arms and wrists will synchronise in the manner our DNA has been programmed.

If I was to paint a dot the size of a golf ball on the base of a tree and give someone an axe, ask them to strike a powerful blow into the spot they would not need me to explain how their hips should rotate, that would happen as natural as taking a breath. They would also instinctively understand how holding the wrist cock late into the swing would increase power. Why oh why does such an action have to become so unnatural to golfers? I can only suggest it is because of people trying to detail a plan that takes away the focus of what comes natural.

I would recommend that most golfers purchase a copy of 3 skills, declutter their minds and get on with practising the things that mater.

[yalleh]

Re: Distance Question

I can not agree with the concept that the hips can be major speed generators in the golf swing. I know players like Tiger use greater than normal hip rotation but I see this as the weakness in his swing and he does make some poor shots at times, normally a push where his hips become overactive and his upper body lags back creating an open clubface.

The hips do play their part but they move at low speed and work to support the faster movements of the torso, shoulders, arms and wrists. Someone with fast hips and slow upper body movements will not hit long shots, the hips can be effective to keep the head back and lower the trail shoulder as they slide forward. A golf swing is no different in this respect to swinging a heavy hammer into a nail or throwing a heavy weight underarm away from you. In these cases you would not pay any attention to the way the hips move, they would work all on their own with no need to exaggerate their natural low speed support to the body, any over rotation will cause you to spin out and throw the trail shoulder forward, promoting an outside in swing.

To reiterate: If you want to hit the ball further then you must be able to swing the club faster and under control, to do this you must work on the upper body, arms and wrists transferring momentum progressively to the clubhead and then the ball. The lower body can only assist to support these movements and create a stable platform that allows you to hit through faster with stability.

The attached article has it right:

http://www.arthurdevany.com/?p=94

After reading this thread I cannot help but think their are about a hundred different pros who will tell you a hundred different ways to hit the ball further. In this forum I read comments that Lorena Ochoa, Fred Couples, Brian W and GolfinGuy28. I'm not sure about Brian W and Golfinguy28 but I know that I cannot turn my shoulders from one side to the other as fast as either Fred or Lorena, nor for that matter anyone on tour (I recently went to a PGA event and realized that no matter how great my technique is i just can't turn as fast as those guys). Now Biran W, golfingguy28, Fred and Lorena are all 100% correct, no matter how fast your FT muscles are, you will inevitably gain distance and control (and of course more enjoyment) from better techinque ... which is why I have signed up for some more professional lessons (not from a magazine or anyone on a golf forum). However I do not have the base muscle core that Fred and Lorena started with.

An excellent example of this is... go grab someone from the local hockey rink or baseball field that can really hit the ball or puck. Ask them if they have ever played golf before. If not show them a few fundamentals of golf. before long they will be pounding the golf ball well over 250 yds within a very short period of time, with far from perfect technique. Or if you are unfortunate like me... you can go on some very intense Chemotherapy. After every week of treatment I would hit the ball less and less as my muscle core deteriorated. I even took lessons which really helped with my technique and helped overcome some of the loss but in the end I lost 4 clubs of distance from treatment and gain one back in proper technique.

Now that I am off my soap box, I'm going to the driving range to practice accelerating the club through the ball as was demonstrated in the youtube video from Brian W..... DAMN THIS ADDICTION!!!

PS... BRIAN W.... loved your comment on people making things too complicated. I think trying to make things easier works on golf and so many other aspects.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

After reading this thread I cannot help but think their are about a hundred different pros who will tell you a hundred different ways to hit the ball further. In this forum I read comments that Lorena Ochoa, Fred Couples, Brian W and GolfinGuy28. I'm not sure about Brian W and Golfinguy28 but I know that I cannot turn my shoulders from one side to the other as fast as either Fred or Lorena, nor for that matter anyone on tour (I recently went to a PGA event and realized that no matter how great my technique is i just can't turn as fast as those guys). Now Biran W, golfingguy28, Fred and Lorena are all 100% correct, no matter how fast your FT muscles are, you will inevitably gain distance and control (and of course more enjoyment) from better techinque ... which is why I have signed up for some more professional lessons (not from a magazine or anyone on a golf forum). However I do not have the base muscle core that Fred and Lorena started with.

An excellent example of this is... go grab someone from the local hockey rink or baseball field that can really hit the ball or puck. Ask them if they have ever played golf before. If not show them a few fundamentals of golf. before long they will be pounding the golf ball well over 250 yds within a very short period of time, with far from perfect technique. Or if you are unfortunate like me... you can go on some very intense Chemotherapy. After every week of treatment I would hit the ball less and less as my muscle core deteriorated. I even took lessons which really helped with my technique and helped overcome some of the loss but in the end I lost 4 clubs of distance from treatment and gain one back in proper technique.

Now that I am off my soap box, I'm going to the driving range to practice accelerating the club through the ball as was demonstrated in the youtube video from Brian W..... DAMN THIS ADDICTION!!!

PS... BRIAN W.... loved your comment on people making things too complicated. I think trying to make things easier works on golf and so many other aspects.

I hope your lessons help to improve your golf. I also hope you are feeling better and on the way to a full recovery.

[yalleh]

Re: Distance Question

I don't see much of a connection with golf and hockey. But i do agree baseballers have a great connection and if you gave them a few pointers they could be hitting it 300+ in no time and with some work 350+. IMO 250 is a number achievable by any grown average adult. I think i saw an article once with mark maguire hitting them 350+. another great sport i think would be great for golf is tennis. thoose guys that serve it 120+ mph could really wack a golf ball. I think hockey is all about the hit and golf or tennis or baseball is about a swing.

I would definatley attribute my distances to studying tennis and baseball as well as golf.





(I don't think that shoulder speed has direct (though it does have indirect) connection with swing speed, but that is another post)
You bring up a good point ant that is something many average joe's say
JOE can't MOVE his shoulders as fast, but i bet JOE shoulders could MOVE as fast.

how to flick your finger. you hold out your thumb and put your middle finger to it and push untill the thumb gives way and the forefinger goes flinging away. now there is no way your could move your finger indepently that fast no matter how hard you tried. but if you learned that technique, there is a way to make your finger move that fast.

that is like the golf swing. people see motions or stats of a motion of the pros (ie. the pro has faster moving hips than the averages joe's. or the pro has faster arms than joe ect.) and joe tries to acheave this fast moving arm by moving his arm fast and using that method he will never achieve this arm speed by trying to move it. the only way he will acheive this arm speed is by letting the arm move that fast based on aciton reaction.

You gotta think outside the box.

Of all the guys I know that hit the golf ball over 300 yds 90% of them played hockey. Of those 90% I would say only 5% have good golf technique, the rest all are very athletic with FT muscles and they could all benefit from some golf lessons... as not many of them land the ball 300 yds away in the fairway.

Again... I'm not saying you are wrong, but if you ever figure out a way to teach people a way to learn this technique please let me know (we can both be a billionaire). For the entire 36 years of my life, I've heard professional golfers, instructors or magazine writers say this is all you need to do to hit it 300 yds.... Almost all of them have a different way to do it from the next guy and I have rarely if ever heard that it works. I have heard people take lessons and with enough time and practice they hit it as far and straight as THEY are capable of hitting it, at this point they usually start working on their short game to improve.

I have an 8 handicap and when I was healthy I could hit it over 250 yds (I have hit it 300 yds but thats with wind and a hard rolling surface so I don't count those), and when I hear people wanting to hit the ball 300 yds I just don't think that everyone has the natural ability and that trying too hard will inevitably make your swing worse (I know it has screwed my swing up). In my life time I've given more helpful hints to the hockey players that hit the ball 300 yds.. I would tell them to shorten their swing a little, help them square the clubface and inevitably they would hit more fairways and green.

Of everything I have read in magazines, seen on TV or read in this forum the only two things that I have found that every gave me more distance (and more control), was Ben Hogan's five fundamentals and then using what Brain W said about keeping things simple. I'll think of one fundamental that I may have problems with and try to only fix it. And when I keep it simple and simply work on my fundamentals I hit it as straight and as far as I am capable, the second I try to hit it 20 yds further than I am capable I absolutely suck.

Thinking outside the box is something I have absolutely no problem with (I'm actually very good at it)... however sometimes you can't ignore the facts. Robert Garrigus (avg drive 311 yds and is 5'11" and 175 lbs) hits the ball nearly 50 yds further than Steven Leaney (avg drive 272.7 yds and is 6' and 175 lbs). Both of the same height and build and both have very solid technique, so what differentiates the two? REMEMBER this isn't 5 or 10 yds difference this is 50 yds!!! I'm sure if you told Steven Leaney that he could hit it further and be more competitive and make a lot more money on tour if only he could understand your analogy of a whip or if he could learn how to flick his finger or that he is trying to move his arm too fast and that its simply action/reaction. Sorry gg28 but their are University's, Colleges, Phd's that study the mechanics of humans and their abilities and they will tell you that some Joe's just can't move as fast as others! No matter how many analogies you give you will not convince me that everyone is created equal and all we need to do is "X" and we can achieve this goal, nor will the thousands of University professors and Phd's that study human mechanics convince me to stop trying!

Back off the soap box... now its my turn for a beer (forgot can't drink while on treatment)

[Neil18]

Re: Distance Question

I do not understand how the hips can provide any power in the swing.

What is swing power anyway?

Is it not a relationship between the clubhead speed and accuracy in striking the ball against how much of that energy is tranferred into the ball? When discussing power in the swing, I think we're discussing efficiency aren't we? Efficiency of movement in producing better than expected results.

It's the "How did he hit it that far? He hardly moved!" syndrome.

Regular readers on here know I'm a Henny Bogan fan. I take everything as gospel from 5 Lessons except for two things: 1. turning the hips hard at the start of the downswing and 2. leading with the right elbow.

Your hips don't turn first to pass on imaginary motion to the next bit, then the next bit etc. The human body doesn't work that way. There's a certain amount of elasticity present in muscle fibre, but not enough to create this mythical snapping chain reaction that people talk about. It's "golf science" invented to make money and keep you coming back for more.

The hips respond to the notion that your about to fire your upper body and trailing arm pretty hard (but gradually) through the ball. Like Brian's tree chopping analogy. You can be damn sure that a lumberjack isn't taking a practice swing in the middle of the woods and thinking "Ok swing it back then fire your hips, then your shoulders, arms, hands, fingers". Timber yards would suffer as much as the average hacker if this were the case.

The lower body (including the hips) braces itself against the ground to give you something to turn around. The power of a golf swing comes from the speeding clubhead meeting the ball squarely. This is held by your hands which are attached to your arms which are attached to your shoulders (notice there's no muscles stretching in this small upper body system). That's the motor. The legs and hips are the stabilisers and guiders. The lower half has to get ready into certain positions and move in a certain way to allow you to hit the ball hard. You can't hit it far if you can't hit it hard. That's basic science that seems to be overlooked by all these self-proclaimed "guru's".

There is no motion that the hips can "pass on" to any other part of your body in the downswing, but they do guide you in the right direction.
The power element comes from how secure and proper your grip is (Hogan's fail-safe) and whether you can maneuver yourself in position to allow your trail arm to bust through the ball as hard as you like. If Ali ever threw a punch that was more hip motion than arm motion he'd have trouble knocking a budgie of his perch, let alone Foreman off his feet.

Hip power? Oh no no no no no no. Hip placement? Oh yes.

[jambalaya]

Re: Distance Question

Any part of your body that you move rotationally in the foward swing provides some power. I am not going to argue how much but you defy the laws of physics to think otherwise. The angles in which you position your body parts in the swing create leverage. I agree that the hips should respond to what you are about to do with the upper body/arms, the hips are a more unconscious moving part, but the hips help sling the arms around the body. You arms would quickly decellerate if the hips didn't provide a little rotational power to propel them around the body.

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

I do not understand how the hips can provide any power in the swing

Neil; Brian, I and others have debated your point throughout this thread. We would say, there is some contributing factor, but it is not major.

On this issue, there were references earlier to how very fast Ochoa moves her hips and that was the answer to her distance.

I have been watching her very closely, and particularly in her four rounds this past week in her invitational tournament. I slow mo'd, stop actioned her swing.

There is no doubt, she REALLY moves her hips.

However, that does not mean that the fast hips were the major cause for her faster club speed. What it could mean, is the actions of the rest of the body in the swing which creates her faster club speed would necessarily require faster hips to be in synch with and support the rest of the body. Otherwise, she would be reeling and off balance, which she is not. Her followthrough is full and on balance, with even a full pose at the end. This on balance, albeit very fast, swing also contributes to her being able to hit the sweet spot, which is a seriously important factor in hitting the ball long and straight.


Ted

[Neil18]

Re: Distance Question

..... but the hips help sling the arms around the body. You arms would quickly decellerate if the hips didn't provide a little rotational power to propel them around the body.

See, that's the bit I don't understand.

I'd wholeheartedly agree if my arms were attached to my hips.

I can accelerate my arms around my body without moving my hips. It would just be well over the top for a golf swing and hence on completely the wrong line. That's why I think that the hips have everything to do with helping the swing in terms of their position, but next to nothing with directly providing power themselves.

The hips moving slightly toward the target allows you to get on the inside. The hips turning (and continuing to turn) allows you to complete the swing toward the target with a full follow-through.

Plus, we're not talking physics, we're talking biology. "The hip bone's connected to the, arm bone..............."

[Neil18]

Re: Distance Question

I do not understand how the hips can provide any power in the swing

Neil; Brian, I and others have debated your point throughout this thread. We would say, there is some contributing factor, but it is not major.

On this issue, there were references earlier to how very fast Ochoa moves her hips and that was the answer to her distance.

I have been watching her very closely, and particularly in her four rounds this past week in her invitational tournament. I slow mo'd, stop actioned her swing.

There is no doubt, she REALLY moves her hips.

However, that does not mean that the fast hips were the major cause for her faster club speed. What it could mean, is the actions of the rest of the body in the swing which creates her faster club speed would necessarily require faster hips to be in synch with and support the rest of the body. Otherwise, she would be reeling and off balance, which she is not. Her followthrough is full and on balance, with even a full pose at the end. This on balance, albeit very fast, swing also contributes to her being able to hit the sweet spot, which is a seriously important factor in hitting the ball long and straight.


Ted

Hmmm. I've seen Ochoa's swing a few times and remember thinking "ew".

Having looked at it again, Her power comes from a well practiced and well timed flippy release through the ball. Which, with her hips that far ahead of everything else, has to be done.

It repeats for her! Can't knock it!

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

I have still read nothing to change my opinion on the hips contribution (Or lack of it) in creating clubhead speed.

One may suggest that it doesn't matter if they do or not but my concern is that this teaching is a contributor to stunting the development of so many novice golfers.

Jambalaya. No one, absolutely no one is saying the hips produce no rotation, please can we get this one put to bed? I (and others) are saying they only produce a small amount of rotational speed so cannot be a major contributor to the 100 mph (or so) head speed generated in a fast swing.

The best piece of information I could give to someone that would assist them to get the most out of their golf swing would be to work hard on maintaining their spine angle while allowing the front shoulder to lift and the trail shoulder to work under in the downswing. These things will improve the speed you can swing with control and allow you to make a proper release of the club through the ball.

[SlattD2Titleist]

Re: Distance Question

2008 Kenny Lofton 335 yards; 2007 Jim McMahon 319 yards; 2006 Paul O'Neill 357 yards; 2005 David Carr 334 yards; 2004 Brian Kinchen 393 yards; 2003 Steve Beuerlein 339 yards; 2002 Jeremy Roenick 340 yards; Emmit Smith 373 Yards in 1999!!!


It's simple: Club Head Speeeeead, as you can see from the above list of long ball winners. These superstars don't have the technique to be professional golfers, but they sure swing fast.

[SlattD2Titleist]

Re: Distance Question

Again, you need not get complicate speaking about spines, hips, shoulders...ect. It doesn't matter. It's whatever works for each person. Emmit Smith most likely could drive it 280 yards standing up to his waste in concrete, with arm strength alone.

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

Emmitt can play! I saw him in a celebrity event and he is so bulked that he could barely manage a shoulder height swing.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/200...-smith--1.html

These are great all-round athletes, in shape and flexible, and with great eye-hand coordination.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

I believe Neil was on the right track with his post. The hips need to turn back in the backswing so that our pivot can be our trail leg, they then need to shift forward so that our pivot can now be out lead leg in the downswing. Power is generated through these pivots whereby our torso, shoulders, arms and wrists are able to create the rotational speed to propel the club with suitable acceleration. Without this hip shift we would have to rely solely on our upper body, arms and wrists with their restricted range of movement.

If you take a stance with an iron then make a back swing with no hip rotation you will see that it is only possible to get around half of the rotation possible than when the hips turn back, the same applies to the forward swing. The hips are not generating the speed they are allowing the necessary pivot and full rotation that the upper body requires in the full swing. Pitching and chipping do not need this full rotation as they are a limited version of the full swing and get by with preset hips.

In saying this I still believe that if you can focus on the task in hand more than the mechanics of producing it then you will probably be in better shape.

[yalleh]

Re: Distance Question

The best piece of information I could give to someone that would assist them to get the most out of their golf swing would be to work hard on maintaining their spine angle while allowing the front shoulder to lift and the trail shoulder to work under in the downswing. These things will improve the speed you can swing with control and allow you to make a proper release of the club through the ball.[/quote]



Brian W... first off, I went to the driving range and worked on the drill from the video clip that you posted earlier in the thread. It worked tremandously to help me get on a straight plain, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I was all over the pin (all-be-it I was about 5 yds shorter than before.. most likely do to the cold/wet weather in November ... I always lose about 10 yds this time of year). So overall I would say it probably will gain me a few yds.

Although you aren't a proponent of it, I did start to use a faster hip motion and gained about 5 -10 yds... although this probably has more to do with being able to swing harder while on a correct path than simply saying that the hips create more distance.

Next I will work on maintaining spine angle. I believe I have ingrained some bad habits that cause me to lose angle during the swing.

I also agree with Slatt on both his last comments. This is why I look for a teaching instructor who will help me improve my swing not try to make me swing exactly like "so and so".

In my honest opinion. It doesn't have anything to do with any one item, but rather all of it together, your hips, shoulders, hands, head, spine angle, muslce speed, flexability, mental aspect, lack of sleep, etc etc. I believe this is why you can do a slow motion reply of every professional golfer from Tiger, to Arnold to Ben to Annika, Ochoa, Jack, Bubba, etc... they are all just a little bit different from each other, yet their swing works for each of them. I think we are putting too much emotion into who's right and who's wrong. If anyone on this thread actually figures this $h!T out CONCLUSIVELY they can package it and sell it and will be a rich man!