Distance Question

[jambalaya]

Re: Distance Question

See, that's the bit I don't understand.

I'd wholeheartedly agree if my arms were attached to my hips.

I can accelerate my arms around my body without moving my hips. It would just be well over the top for a golf swing and hence on completely the wrong line. That's why I think that the hips have everything to do with helping the swing in terms of their position, but next to nothing with directly providing power themselves.

The hips moving slightly toward the target allows you to get on the inside. The hips turning (and continuing to turn) allows you to complete the swing toward the target with a full follow-through.

Plus, we're not talking physics, we're talking biology. "The hip bone's connected to the, arm bone..............."

You answered your own question. Stand in an address position without a club and let your arms hang completely loose. Now thrust and rotate only your hips. Your arms move. I am not saying that the hips provide all the rotational force you need to hit a golf ball, but it does contribute. The contribution from the different body parts are additive and their movements translate power through the club to the ball. I am not a core only swing advocate but I appreciate their contribution to a powerful shot.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

You answered your own question. Stand in an address position without a club and let your arms hang completely loose. Now thrust and rotate only your hips. Your arms move. I am not saying that the hips provide all the rotational force you need to hit a golf ball, but it does contribute. The contribution from the different body parts are additive and their movements translate power through the club to the ball. I am not a core only swing advocate but I appreciate their contribution to a powerful shot.

Jamb,

If I did what you suggest my arms would swing at around 3 mph max. You need to consider the pivoting action around each leg and the way the hips allow you to do that while increasing the possible swing length.

[jambalaya]

Re: Distance Question

Jamb,

If I did what you suggest my arms would swing at around 3 mph max. You need to consider the pivoting action around each leg and the way the hips allow you to do that while increasing the possible swing length.

Well I don't know how fast exactly but obviously much less force is going to be translated to loosely connected arms, and hips alone are not going to give you everything you need to get the clubhead up to the speed you desire to hit the ball far. The action of your legs, the rotation and unwinding if you will of the hips, torso and shoulders, the unfolding of the right arm the subtle movement of the wrist all serve to propel the club head around the body to contact with ball and beyond to the finish.

[Neil18]

Re: Distance Question

Having read more and wtached some of the Bruce Lee stuff (very good) should us golfers then be thinking of creating straight line power, rather than circular power?

Circular power obviously exists in golf because of the nature of the setup and the fact that the ball is below us on the floor. But in the case of Bruce Lee, for example, where he is in the fortunate position of being able to hit people with part of his body (rather than a silly looking stick with a curvy bit on the end) he uses straight line power. The absolutely perfect example of this is the "one inch punch".

Lee sets up so that it all starts from the ground. His trail foot is on the balls and he clearly pushes from this and the motion goes through his body out and into his fist, snapping his hip into impact. This is straight line power where he can push behind him to get the equal and opposite reaction going to the target directly infront of him.

So should golfers think of straight line power? The circular bit comes from address in relation to the ball and the wrist hinge. So there is plenty of circular power involved. But we can't actually feel the shaft or head. It isn't part of us. And the human body isn't set up to be strong rotationally.

As a result of the setup the club goes around us in a (sort of) circular motion, but our bodies should be geared up to create straight line power?

In which case we could have two schools of thought here. One where the player thinks of his body as rotational and every part is moving in a circular way, or the player that moves his body to create straight line power.

The circular way doesn't involve hip power or thrust, but the straight line way definately does.

[jambalaya]

Re: Distance Question

The golf swing definitely includes hip power but we cannot as efficiently use the hip for power as Bruce Lee does in his punch. He can lean into the punch and bring more of his weight to bear into the power of the punch. Try to extend your right arm in front of you and push sideways on a wall or some object you can actually move. Now get straight onto it with your hips and body behind you and you can exert much more force. As you said, straight on power is much better. But you cannot push a golf ball 300 yards. The further we extend that lever which is the golf club out from our body the less force we can apply to the end of it. We instead propel the clubhead around the body and the speed we build up along with the mass of the club and at lease some leverage delivers a blow.

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

Application of power per se in the golf swing does not help the distance in golf, unless it is converted or facilitated into a faster clubhead.

You can pure muscle the club to whatever degree to strike the ball, but it
cannot be as effective.

The rotational, lever and centrifugal actions in proper sequence would be more condusive to faster clubhead speed than the power. The 1" punch can be delivered with force, but the around the body overhead kick with the foot travelling in a twelve foot arc will have so much more force, a major part of which is due to centrifugal velocity.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

Force = Mass x Acceleration

The same Force (F) can be achieved if M x A are applied irrespective of which element is dominant, as long as they total the same sum. So the Mass can be large and the Acceleration low, or , the Acceleration can be large and the Mass can be low and the same force will be achieved.

A golf swing is referred to as the Ballistic method of this equation where the acceleration is high and the Mass very low.

The Karate punch is referred to as the Strength Speed method whereby the Mass and Acceleration are contributing equally.

Another example would be the Maximal method whereby the Mass is large and the Acceleration is low like in the demolition ball.

So we hit a golf ball a long way by swinging the light clubhead fast and we get crushed if a bus hits us at 30 mph

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Distance Question

Hello All:

This has turned into one of the more interesting and controversial threads on the site in some time.

Do the hips alone produce all of the power. No
Do the arms alone produce all of the power. No
Do the wrists alone produce all of the power. No
Do the shoulders alone produce all of the power. No
Do the legs alone produce all of the power. No

It is a balanced combination of these and other body parts working in tempo and rythym that produce power.

In golf, not chopping down a tree with an ax (which for some outragious reason has become a comparison to the golf swing in this thread) the hip action is very different than any other athletic motion. The proper hip action connects the lower and upper body motions that produce not only power but most importantly balance in the swing. It allows the spine angle to be maintained which provides this balance and on plane delivery of the high velocity clubhead speed to the ball.

Vijay Singh who undoubtably is one of the finest golfers of the past decade said himself that he never fully understood the true working mechanism of the hip motion until just a few years ago. He had a clue obviously, but even a player of this calibre, needed to work on this motion as a total focal point for tens of thousands of practice shots until he felt in control of it. He has changed his swing plane of late but not the core action of his hips. By the way he still plays pretty well or at least Fed Ex thinks so.

If you want to chop down trees with an ax to get better at golf, great. I can wack down a tree and I agree it is really simple. I don't think about much. There is no follow through required and my margin for error is about six inches give or take. Good lumberjacks make 70 grand a year and the best golfers make several million so I guess it is a good comparison of skill required. Sorry but the comparison of chopping down a tree to hitting a golf ball with power and precision still makes me laugh.

Guys, like it or not, I would highly recommend getting the hips moving in the right direction. High handicaps have stagnant hip action and you can witness this at any driving range. Take a look at Anthony Kim and his hips during the swing and see if it looks like your local 20 handicap partner or your local tree service man for that matter.

Tim S.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

Hello All:

This has turned into one of the more interesting and controversial threads on the site in some time.

Do the hips alone produce all of the power. No
Do the arms alone produce all of the power. No
Do the wrists alone produce all of the power. No
Do the shoulders alone produce all of the power. No
Do the legs alone produce all of the power. No

It is a balanced combination of these and other body parts working in tempo and rythym that produce power.

In golf, not chopping down a tree with an ax (which for some outragious reason has become a comparison to the golf swing in this thread) the hip action is very different than any other athletic motion. The proper hip action connects the lower and upper body motions that produce not only power but most importantly balance in the swing. It allows the spine angle to be maintained which provides this balance and on plane delivery of the high velocity clubhead speed to the ball.

Vijay Singh who undoubtably is one of the finest golfers of the past decade said himself that he never fully understood the true working mechanism of the hip motion until just a few years ago. He had a clue obviously, but even a player of this calibre, needed to work on this motion as a total focal point for tens of thousands of practice shots until he felt in control of it. He has changed his swing plane of late but not the core action of his hips. By the way he still plays pretty well or at least Fed Ex thinks so.

If you want to chop down trees with an ax to get better at golf, great. I can wack down a tree and I agree it is really simple. I don't think about much. There is no follow through required and my margin for error is about six inches give or take. Good lumberjacks make 70 grand a year and the best golfers make several million so I guess it is a good comparison of skill required. Sorry but the comparison of chopping down a tree to hitting a golf ball with power and precision still makes me laugh.

Guys, like it or not, I would highly recommend getting the hips moving in the right direction. High handicaps have stagnant hip action and you can witness this at any driving range. Take a look at Anthony Kim and his hips during the swing and see if it looks like your local 20 handicap partner or your local tree service man for that matter.

Tim S.

Tim,

I am surprised that you find our opinions laughable, I will attempt not to get into that level of discussion with you however outrageous you consider them and will discuss the matter without need for rhetorical statements.

You seem to have taken the comment regarding the axe and tree out of context, maybe you should read it again. The analogy was made not to suggest swinging an axe at a tree was exactly the same action required to hit a golf ball, the actions are very similar though as both are hitting actions, it was in the context that when doing this there was no need to focus on what the hips needed to do and that if we put our focus into the action of the clubhead approaching, striking and passing the ball then these body actions would happen naturally. This is exactly how the 3 Skills system works and many here have paid testament to its precepts.

I should also point out that no one is saying the hips pay no part in generating some power in the swing or should remain static throughout, quite the contrary, please can we put that cookie to bed once and for all.

The discussion has been based around whether the hips are a/the major power generator in creating headspeed, I and some others are stating that it is our belief they do create some speed but only to a small degree and their main purpose is that of creating stability and initial inertia.

My personal problem with suggestions that the way to create distance (which is what the OP asked about) is to spin the hips fast is that this action can wreck a novices progress by making them work on an action that alone will:

a) Not improve distance
b) Create instability
c) Throw them off plane
d) Create slices
e) Make fat and thin contact
f) Push out the trail shoulder and create an outside in path

My opinion is that the biggest errors to good ball contact is poor posture, lifting the spine angle and poor weight transfer. Most of these errors are created by novices being confused by advice that prevails like: Spin your hips fast. If they were taught how to slide the hips so that weight is transferred early to the lead leg then many of the above problems would not happen, rotation would also happen naturally.

I would strongly recommend you read the 3 Skills book to get a more balanced view. Regarding the tree surgeons salary verses the golf Pro, well lets forget that one eh!

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Distance Question

Hello Brian:

Yes, actually I understood your "chopping the tree analogy" from the initial read and your point of not overcomplicating what should be a fairly natural motion. The ol KISS Method.

I stand by my contention that golf is not easy and never will be. It is an unnatural motion made completely difficult because of the exacting margins of error. The slightest deviation of a square clubface will produce results costing a golfer distance and direction. Actually ,the fact that golf is so difficult is the very reason why people are obsessed by it. It allows us to hit enough good shots to enjoy the game when we get profecient, but always begs the desire to hit them straighter and longer. Its a hard game as handicaps levels will attest (they have not come down on average in fourty years) and the large pots of money payed to those who master its' charms the best. It's also why websites like this are so much fun to waste time on.

I do agree that certain aspects of the game are quite natural for those with good sports acumen and hand eye coordination. As Iv'e stated, I believe the hip motion to be elusive and not replicated in other sports where our object is in motion and usually on a more level plane. Motion analysis programs indicate that a hockey slapshot is the closest thing to a golf swing in athletics. Not surprisingly, hockey players are usually excellent golfers. I believe it has to do with their ability to generate that explosive puck speed while balancing on thin steel blades. If you look at impact positions of golfers and hockey players they are very much alike and guess what? The hips are wide open at impact. Hockey players such as Brett Hull and Mario Lemiux who are plus handicaps also atribute their power and balance to hip action.

Also, I'm sure the Three Skills method is great and if if takes off strokes more the better but I honestly have heard of no tour level players mention this instruction at any time. In every text I've read from top instructors or players and I've read many they all mention the importance of hip motion.
It is also why top players today concentrate so much on core conditioning including strengtheing the hip muscles. It's also clear just by watching them swing. I'm irish and my head is as hard as titanium so I don't think I'll change my mind on this "hip" topic.

Tim S.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

Tim,

I can only repeat again that no one, especially me is disagreeing that the hips need to rotate and finish facing the target. I hope that is clear and final.

The relevance of the ice hockey players 'Puck' method is another matter and one that I have been a proponent of in many posts suggesting that additional power can be produced through the wrists and forearms by using a 'puck' release.

3 skills is something in it's infancy and will not be used by leading coaches, it may never be as it flies in the face of traditional teaching, that does not mean it is not a better way to teach/learn golf though. It's main point is that you should abandon all swing thoughts and focus on the impact area while using imagery to assist your brain to create good ball contact and flight.

I would also point out that on this site we are not coaching tour pros, we are trying to help each other and pass on personal experiences that may assist some to by-pass the hard learned lessons of others.

If you are that hard headed that you will absolutely not consider another point of view then that is a shame IMHO. I am willing to change mine if some substantive evidence convinces me to change a view that I have reached through a great deal of consideration.

[rotator]

Re: Distance Question

Golf Tips and Golf Instruction: Only 1 in 5 Golfers Know This...

How fast can you hit the tennis serve, with and without a hip thrust? How about cricket? I'm sure that baseball players could hit a ball off a teeball tee to the fence, with their lower body immobilized.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

blah blah blah, is all i hear/see when it is comming from the same guy's study who is trying to sell you on his method. of course he is going to make sense. just like golf magazine tell you it is the hips and golf digest tells you it is the arm and "studies have been done" and since we are so nice we will tell you how to use the hands or the arms ect. if you buy our product/method or magazine.


my best advice is try the spinning the hips as hard as you can and see how far you can hit it, then to straiten the arms as hard as you can, try keeping the hips absolutly still ect. try different things and see what works for you, don't let people tell you what is best. try the opposite of what they say (except for the fundementals, thoose are key an i think 100% agree on them, but go agaist it if you want for a try) try a reverse pivot and feel why that is weak and why it doen't work, don't just read that it doesn't work and not do it because some guy said so. i learning my swing i developed a reverse pitvot and it was one of the best things for my swing. i learned differnt effects of how the club reacts when my body is in that position. your right arm is much stronger to pull through and i released better but i would top it and chunk it. so then i went to a front only weight and learned the strenghts and weakneses of that. then i learned to put them together into a good weight shift and use the best of both worlds. isoloate cetain "bad"/"wrong" methods and see what you get out of it and if you can use that in your full swing.

think outside the box.

You are entitled to that opinion just as others are entitled to theirs. I hope you accept this post in the friendly manner it is intended.

I am probably older than you and have spent considerable time studying the golf swing and practising it. There are many people around who have hit more balls than me (Moe Norman in particular) but I don't personally know many, I have practised hitting balls a great deal. One thing I have learned well though is that fiddling around blindly trying out this and that is not a fast track to quick improvement. Something else I have done is take a lot of lessons, some have been great and some created more questions than answers one thing they had in common was they were all expensive.

You will hear that the golf swing is a complicated action and not many have the physical attributes to do it well, I happen to think this is not the case, most average Joe's can make a passable golf swing if their mind is cleared of clutter and they are taught some simple fundamentals. It is important to understand the best way to grip the club, make a stance and align yourself, it is also important to understand how to strike the ball with the sweetspot of each club and what path the clubhead should be taking as it comes into, strikes then leaves the ball. Most of the other information pushed out falls between confusing and myth.

Think inside the box.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Distance Question

Hello Again:

One thing that has not been mentioned, and that I have learned only through being realistic about my golf swing, is that I usually hit the ball with the best combination of distance (power) and accuracy when I swing at about 80 percent of my overall ability to create clubhead speed.
This keeps me in control of my tempo and balance and overall control of my swing.

Unfortunately my ego (hard head) usually gets in the way and I try to press this and eventually things fall apart. That desire for those extra ten yards often destroys what is a very sound golfing ability that I have. It takes a great deal of patience to understand that there is an optimal distance per club that can be produced with the current attributes that I have based on my size, physical flexibility, strength, technique and practice time available.

If I swing, trying to hit the ball as far as possible, I may connect with a few sweet 300 yard drives but the consistency is sporatic at best. When I preprogam (visualize) an 80 percent swing picture and execute it, this is when I make solid impact contact and the ball flies true to my target with more consistency. I have wasted many hours of practice time by trying to max out my swing when the better option would be to settle for the 270 or even 240 yard drive in the fairway versus the 300 blast in the trees.

Golf requires control of many physical skills but it often boils down to control of the mind to perform effeciently and effectively. Even the top pros say that always hold a "little something" back because they understand this philosophy. This applies to Tiger, Ernie, and many other long ball hitters.

When you watch the pros, and let's face it we marvel at their abilities and acomplishments, they are not swinging at top speed on most shots. Usually, they say that they are swinging at around 80 percent of their potential and this would equate to about 60 percent for the rest of us.

My suggestion would be to forget that maximum distance drive that you hit one out of twenty shots on the range (with absolutely no consequences whatsoever) and concentrate on grooving a realistic swing
that you can replicate and most importantly, duplicate on the course.

This is a true challenge of the mind because our natural human desire is to "do more" but you have to draw a line as to your capabilities. I believe the practice range can be your best ally or your worst enemy if you do not go in with the right attitiude and goals and stick to them.

Although this thread is about distance and how to attain it, it is only worth a grain of salt if the ball is not going where you intend it. strive for "80" and see how things go.

Thanks for reading,

Tim S.

[BrianW]

Re: Distance Question

Tim,

That's some very sound advice. On a day when we are hitting the ball sweetly it is so easy to think "Hey! That was another good shot, maybe I can wind it up a bit more and play even better" Alas, this is normally the point in the game where we become toast.