Lag and the Moment of Impact

[vp27519]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Don't know anything about physics - just feel.

I know I've done the right thing when I focus on the hands being ahead of the ball at impact and;

when practicing, putting a tee a couple of inches in front of the ball and trying to hit that first.

I still struggle with thinking of maintaining the angle b/w the hand and arm on the down swing.

[rotator]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Hi,

I don't have a problem with the lag, but I di for a long time. I worked at it, trying everything. As you know it's a difficult thing to wean yourself off the "hit syndrome". I think it was a gradual development which made it somewhat automatic now.

Some of the drills I used with moderate success in the early stages, was the old saw where you keep the butt of the shaft pointing at the ball on the downswing as long as you can, before the shaft levels off. I would do pump motions of this to ingrain the feeling.

A few years ago I studied and played Natural Golf, and one thing that Moe Norman said in one of his videos really started to register what the feeling should be. He said, when he is on his downswing he feels like he is taking his uncocked hands beyond the ball down the target line. He demonstrated this, showing his hands travelling about a foot past his left thigh, the wrists still maintaining the lag, and the shaft horizontal to the ground with the clubhead trailing. He said, of course that was not what actually happens, but that was the feeling he had.

Since then, that was a constant image I have.

Ted

[bahamaman]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Make sure your right elbow is cocked and lodged deep into your right midsection. The right elbow releases first, the the wrist.

[jambalaya]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

If the lag is right you feel that all the efforts you made in your swing have been transferred to the ball at impact; If not you feel cheated.

[BrianW]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

I have written a detailed review paper on how to maximize lag and avoid casting.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/casting.htm

The major factors affecting the club release phenomenon are the i) shape of the hand arc; and ii) the hand speed at different time points during the movement of the hands along the hand arc.

A late release occurs when a golfer has an U-shaped hand arc, and where hand speed is only maximal at the time point when the hands are going around the tightest curve (smallest radius) of the Ushaped hand arc.

Casting (early sweep release) occurs when the hand arc is more circular and when hand speed is maximum in the early downswing (due to over-acceleration of the hands).

Jeff.

Jeff,

I would like to put a question to you please.

Do you consider clubhead lag is mainly created by the hinging up and down of the wrists or the rotation of the wrists and forearms?

Please consider the attached picture from your article in your answer.

[rotator]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Jeff,

I would like to put a question to you please.

Do you consider clubhead lag is mainly created by the hinging up and down of the wrists or the rotation of the wrists and forearms?

Please consider the attached picture from your article in your answer.

Hi Brian,

I'm wondering if the relevant question would be if clubhead speed and power is mainly created by the hinging up and down of the wrists or the rotation of the wrists and forearms?

Creating the lag is one thing, and could be accomplished by hinging the wrists, but that may not necessarily address which action actually creates more speed and power.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Hi Brian,

I'm wondering if the relevant question would be if clubhead speed and power is mainly created by the hinging up and down of the wrists or the rotation of the wrists and forearms?

Creating the lag is one thing, and could be accomplished by hinging the wrists, but that may not necessarily address which action actually creates more speed and power.

Ted

Ted,

My initial question to Jeff is which one is mainly responsible for creating clubhead lag.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Brian

Lag refers to the angle between the left arm and the clubshaft and it is entirely due to the left wrist cocking upwards during the backswing. In TGM terms, it is referred to as the loading of power accumulator #2, and most golfers get a 90 degree lag angle by the end of the backswing. The left wrist remains flat during this process, and there is no left wrist bending (palmar flexion or dorsiflexion) at any time point during the backswing or downswing.

While the left wrist is cocking upwards during the backswing, the left humerus also internally rotates and the left forearm supinates slightly - so that the back of the flat left wrist (which faces the target at address) ends up facing skywards at the end of the backswing. This rotation of the left arm/forearm represents the loading of power accumulator #3. This loading process reverses in the downswing and it represents the release of PA#3. PA#2 releases before PA#3, and at impact the left wrist is level - neither cocked upwards or cocked downwards at impact. The left wrist only becomes fully uncocked by the end of the followthrough (when both arms are straight).

The concept of lag has nothing to do with the rotation of the left arm/forearm that occurs during the backswing, and that reverses during the downswing. Lag refers to the clubshaft-left arm relationship and it only occurs within the plane of the left wrist cocking action.

Jeff.

p.s. I am very precise when I use the term "hinging" with respect to wrist movements and I only use the term to refer to wrist movements that bend the wrist (palmar flex or dorsiflex the wrist). A wrist cocking motion is not a wrist hinging action.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htm

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Ted,

In TGM terms, there are three sources of swing power in a swinger's action, and that is via the sequential release of power accumulator #4, then #2 and then #3.

PA#4 produces most of the swing power, and it is loaded when the left arm is brought across the chest wall in the backswing.



PA#4 is released when the left arm is swung away from the chest wall in the downswing and it is fully released when there is a 90 degree angle between the left arm and chest wall. PA#4 is released in a left-arm swinger by a pulling away of the left arm from the chest wall - by the active contraction of left shoulder girdle muscles - colored in red in the next photo.




However, most professional golfers release PA#4 via a pivot-drive action. The left arm is catapulted away from the chest wall by the rotating torso.

PA#2 (clubhead lag) is released passively according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model - as demonstrated by me in this swing video demonstration of a double pendulum swing model.

PA#2 is called the velocity PA, and it produces less than 50% of the swing power.

PA#3 is called the transfer PA#3 and it transfers power to the ball when the left arm/forearm rotates just before impact. It doesn't produce power by itself. The rotation of the left arm/forearm occurs passively, and there is no active left arm/forearm rotation in a swinger's action.

If you are really interested in understanding the TGM swing power concepts, then you can my detailed review paper.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm

Jeff.

[rotator]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Hi Jeff,

I've had other discussions regarding the actions and contributions of the wrists and rotation, in isolation without the shoulders, torso, hips and legs. Here is a bit of my take on it. It is an extract from a discussion with another party, so you have to read it in that context.

"Again, I would not say mainly the rotation, and I don't know if it's correct to say the unhinging (uncocking) action is widely taught as the main source of speed in itself. The instructors rightly teach that the hinging (cocking) should be done a certain way and it is a powerful contributor to the swing.

I can't see that rotation itself is hugely powerful. Neither is the release of the wrist cock by itself, if you test the cock and release of the left wrist cock, without rotation. However, that flicking action of the wrists cocking and releasing, like casting a fishing rod, creates great centrifugal speed at the end of the 40" club. Probably more so than the rotational effect to the end of the club, because that is just moving the head inches open and closed.

I still say that both are essential and have to be seen to work together to create synergy much greater than the sum of their individual parts. Test the action with the wrist cocking and the arms rotating open on the backswing and the arms rotating closed while the wrist cock releases. It's a powerful whipping action.

And that is just the left arm, so add in the right arm bending and straightening while rotating and the right wrist unbending, and that is a powerful force, and still without the shoulder, body, hips, legs and feet."

If I am interpreting your accumulator effect principles, particularly regarding the arm and wrist action, you are saying basically saying what I said in simplific terms in the above.

Ted

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Golfinguy

We live in parallel mental universes where "things" operate differently.

In my mental universe, a left arm swinger can only use muscles that attach to the left arm to pull the left arm away from the chest wall. Those are the muscles in red, and that represents the left arm swing action taught by Leslie King.

Most professional golfers use the torso muscles to rotate the torso at a fast speed, and the rotating torso drives the left arm via push-pressure at pressure point #4 (as described in my review paper). The left arm is eventually blasted off the chest wall in the mid-downswing and freewheels towards impact. That's what the world long drive champion, Jamie Sadlowski, is doing in this swing - which caused him to win the championship with a 410+ yard drive.

The pivot-drive starts with a lower body rotation and a certain amount of the force is transmitted to the upper torso via the spinal column and external torso musculature. However, most of the muscular forces torquing the upper torso are derived from the right-sided abdominal muscles - depicted in green in the following photograph.



The torso rotates in the pivot-drive action, and therefore the quadratus lumborum muscles is not involved. The quadratus lumborum muscles causes ipsilateral lateral flexion of the torso.

See - Quadratus lumborum muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Ted

I agree with some of your points, but I don't agree with the following statement.

"And that is just the left arm, so add in the right arm bending and straightening while rotating and the right wrist unbending, and that is a powerful force, and still without the shoulder, body, hips, legs and feet."

First of all, the right wrist should never unbend in the downswing in a golf swing. Secondly, the right arm straightens passively in a swinger's action in the late downswing and doesn't supply any push-force at either PP#1 or PP#3. At that late time point in the downswing, the club is traveling ultra-fast due to the sequential release of PA#4 and then PA#2 - as demonstrated by this left arm swinger.

Note that he uses the hips/shoulders (via the pivot-drive action) to induce the release of PA#4. Once PA#4 releases, then PA#2 releases automatically/passively via a centrifugal mechanism.

Jeff.

[rotator]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Hi Jeff,

You are absolutely right about the right wrist. I got carried away, taking the action to the release and follow through position, which is past impact. I think I wrote that about 2:00 in he morning. I do keep the right wrist bent coming into and at impact. This bent wrist shows well in the dynamic snapshots of Tiger and others in the other thread I posted earlier this evening.

Regarding the right elbow unfolding, you show the one arm swing, which is very powerful in itself. But the dissenters would say there are other ways to swing the club, such as players who use the right arm for power. One who comes to mind is Hogan. I associate the tucking of the right elbow into the side of the body and the subsequent unbending of the elbow bend as a contributor to speed and power.

I will study your papers in detail, though, because what I take from the "accumulators" keyword is that the principles of the swing promote what I described as parts and actions working together to create synergy much greater than the sum of their individual parts, or an building of layers on layers. It also seems that passivity and freedom of motion is also a fundamental of the swing. I like that, as I already swing with soft arms and swinging motion, rather than hittiing.

Ted

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

Ted

If you read my papers you will see that I distinguish between swinging and hitting, and that swingers cannot use their right arm to drive load the club while they are swinging. Hogan was a swinger, and he therefore didn't "hit with his right hand" in the late downswing - as so many people argue. I discussed this issue in question number 2 in my downswing chapter. Hogan specifically stated that a golfer has to hit as hard with the left hand as the right hand in his "Five Lessons" book - see page 99.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm


Jeff.

[bahamaman]

Re: Lag and the Moment of Impact

The right elbow folding is not for power only. The main reason is that the body has to conform to the swing. It's physically impossible to take the club back properly and on plane without the right elbow folding; also the left elbow folds into the left side during the follow through. It's called "L"shape to "L" shape.