Early Release

[BrianW]

Re: Early Release

while holding the wrist cock or lag and then the arms fall down, what squares the clubface at impact? IS it the rotating of the forearms or the turning of the hips? or both? ... or neither?

Try to reverse your thinking process: Concentrate on what the clubface has to do through impact, get an image in your mind of the clubface 6" before impact, at impact and 6" after impact. Now as you make your swing just focus in on these clubface positions, you may be surprised that if you let your cerebral cortex take care of it that it will happen anyway.

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

while holding the wrist cock or lag and then the arms fall down, what squares the clubface at impact? IS it the rotating of the forearms or the turning of the hips? or both? ... or neither?

As I said earlier, it's easy for us to pick up on something and to fixate on it, to a point of forgetting the other good things you've been doing in your swing. I was candid about problems I used to have in this light, earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure, but from the way your question is phrased, perhaps you are concentrating so hard on the lag and dropping the arms, that you are cramping yourself up in a position to position motion, the arms are not swinging, and the lag can't release and square up the clubhead. What I mean is:- on the downswing from the top, you may be fixating so much on the retaining of the lag, you may be increasing your grip pressure or tensing up the arms and wrists, and then forcing the dropping of the arms behind you instead of on plane. You may be forgetting about making your usual weight shift, arms on plane in front of your body, body continuing to rotate, arms rotating, normal swing.

You don't just drop the arms behind you to retain the lag. You have to do your normal lower body weight shift (some hip rotation) so your shoulders and arms can swing down on plane (as they say into the slot), but you retain the wrist cock from the top, unless you follow the casting school. Again, remember not with tense arms or wrists. You will retain the lag position from the top of the backswing to the hip high position with the hands in front of you (as in the classic pictures of Tiger, Sergio, Brian Watt et al). From this point to impact, the centrifugal force created by the natural and unforced actions of the swing (weight shift, hips, interactive lever and rotational actions of the torso, shoulders and arms), will allow your wrists to release from the cocked positions. You should end up at impact with the hands leading the clubhead, and the trailing wrist bent and the leading wrist pronated or flat, which is your desired purpose. From my personal experience, the first times I worked on this, I thought no way, but the release from the hip high position tremendously increases the speed of the head, on top of the speed built up previously in the swing. Brian says there must also be a primal instinct that says, hey don't come in with a open clubface, and the body parts cooperate.

To answer your question specifically, it is both hips and arm rotation, but in the sequence of a sound natural swing as described above. You can feel this if you were going to hit a ball pitched at you with an iron in your hands. Take your "batting stance". As the ball approaches, you shift your weight to the back leg, as the the shoulders and arms draw the club back and up, the forearms rotating, the trailing elbow bending, the wrists cocking. When you are going to go to hit the ball, you step ahead with your front leg and shift your weight forward by pushing off your back foot, your hips rotate around the front braced leg, your torso and shoulders pull the arms around and forward. The lash at the ball is a sequence of the trailing elbow straightening, both forearms rotating, the wrists uncocking, the body continuing to turn supported by the turn of the hips. You will see the clubface square up.

I hope this will help,

Ted

[bruin]

Re: Early Release

brian w & lowpost sum up the golf swing in a few but very powerful words, same minimal swing thoughts as myself . the most powerful part of the body.........the brain.let it do the work.

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

brian w & lowpost sum up the golf swing in a few but very powerful words, same minimal swing thoughts as myself . the most powerful part of the body.........the brain.let it do the work.

At this stage in my golf life, I too can play without all the thoughts, and the game is simple and enjoyable.

However, if I did not take the many years to figure out what I was doing wrong and struggle with understanding what the fundamentals should be, I would still be a mess, or worse.

I used to have all the classic problems at one point, or the other, and can identify with people who are struggling with them. So many misconceptions of what you should actually be doing, versus what you are doing.

I regularly rehearse in slo-mo my swing, taking it through the positions, stopping to check certain problem areas at the moment. In the real swing, I move through these positions without a hitch and it flows, because the right alignments and sequences are there.

I also do that with my several old swings (which I do to chuckle at myself and shake my head), and there is the roque's gallery, reverse pivoting, coming over the top, head dipping ahead of the ball on the backswing, flipping my hands, etc. Yet, I was breaking 100 and sometimes down to the low 90's. I was athletic and saved a lot of shots, and had a good short game (my over the top slice move, made me one heck of a short game player). I was frustrated, because I thought I should be doing better. Where's the satisfaction in hitting the 5 iron the same distance as a 7 iron, or aiming to allow for a slice, the occasional chunk?

I don't think it's right to just say don't bother with addressing details and just stand up there and fire away, let the brain take over, or it happens naturally. But it doesn't happen that way. If you have fundamental problems like losing plane, reverse pivoting etc. your "natural swing" is not going to do you any good. Do we not remember how difficult it was for us to overcome certain problems? There is a reason why a golfer who has problems, goes for lessons, or reads 3 SK's, or follows a drill, or a particular teacher's instructions, and they see significant improvement. That did not happen, because his natural tendencies caused it. To say otherwise, doesn't help a person with specific problems.

I've said my piece and that's that, and I'm not debating this.

Ted

P.S. I believe Brian only referred to the "brain" in the context of the instinct that squares the clubface from the retained lag position.

[ben hogan]

Re: Early Release

while holding the wrist cock or lag and then the arms fall down, what squares the clubface at impact? IS it the rotating of the forearms or the turning of the hips? or both? ... or neither?

Both, go to the top of your backswing,with your back facing the target
drop the hands as fast as possible. Let the hips responed and the
forearm of the left hand will square/roll the club...

[bruin]

Re: Early Release

rotator, done my time ,as yourself , on all the swing adjustments and common faults that plague the golfer in the early years. and i agree that understanding the swing helps and having a good set up is paramount( which is where a lot of golfers come unstuck) , but if you clutter the mind with too many swing thoughts you also suffer , just trying to offer my small piece of advice , which worked for me , but may not for others. it certainly is not a quick fix , but then most quick fixes dont work.
i have gained a great deal of insight into the swing from this site , and found 3sk's on here as well.i hope others are as fortunate.

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

Hi bruin,

On hindsight, when we have it figured out, and we don't have to think about it, it's very easy and blaise to say don't think about the positions and details and just swing. People say that the time struggling to learn a sound swing was a waste of time and effort. But, obviously, the time spent was not a waste, because they did learn how to do it and sorted out the details. It may have taken a longer time than it should have, because of the derailments along the way. Unless you were born with exceptional talent for the game, it's unlikely the game came naturally. Even the majority of the top pros, some with generations of good golf genes and with the best instructors, have problems which they have to constantly work on and think about. Their natural "just swing away" might have them blocking the shot, and they're having a heck of a time, figuring out what they're doing, or having to do to eliminate that miss.

I believe when a recreational golfer says he has an over the top problem, you can't tell him don't worry about it and swing away, and the natural instincts will resolve it. Not likely.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: Early Release

Hi bruin,

On hindsight, when we have it figured out, and we don't have to think about it, it's very easy and blaise to say don't think about the positions and details and just swing. People say that the time struggling to learn a sound swing was a waste of time and effort. But, obviously, the time spent was not a waste, because they did learn how to do it and sorted out the details. It may have taken a longer time than it should have, because of the derailments along the way. Unless you were born with exceptional talent for the game, it's unlikely the game came naturally. Even the majority of the top pros, some with generations of good golf genes and with the best instructors, have problems which they have to constantly work on and think about. Their natural "just swing away" might have them blocking the shot, and they're having a heck of a time, figuring out what they're doing, or having to do to eliminate that miss.

I believe when a recreational golfer says he has an over the top problem, you can't tell him don't worry about it and swing away, and the natural instincts will resolve it. Not likely.

Ted

Hi there Ted.

I think you would get a good read from the 3skills book, it takes a completely different and fresh look at how to get people playing good golf. I found it to be a breath of fresh air and even if you do not completely follow all its precepts there is so much that it clarifies for just about everyone. The theory of letting go all swing thoughts and focus on a set of images is quite liberating for many.

For the price of a packet of average golf balls it's a great buy. I would go as far as to say that if you didn't find it worth the money I would refund it to you myself

Cheers Mate.

[ben hogan]

Re: Early Release

Both, go to the top of your backswing,with your back facing the target
drop the hands as fast as possible. Let the hips responed and the
forearm of the left hand will square/roll the club...

When your able to do this then work on this...

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

Hi there Ted.

I think you would get a good read from the 3skills book, it takes a completely different and fresh look at how to get people playing good golf. I found it to be a breath of fresh air and even if you do not completely follow all its precepts there is so much that it clarifies for just about everyone. The theory of letting go all swing thoughts and focus on a set of images is quite liberating for many.

For the price of a packet of average golf balls it's a great buy. I would go as far as to say that if you didn't find it worth the money I would refund it to you myself

Cheers Mate.

Hi Brian,

We have both mentioned Joe Dante as having a large influence on our golf game. I would say he and his followers' teachings have had the most dramatic difference to my present simple, essentially thought-free swing. It seemed to tie together all the previously learned aspects of the swing, which I struggled with over the years. In regard to the previous learnings, I will never forget them, because there were a lot of trials along the way. That is good, because I will never again - come over the top, flip, etc.

I read a lot of the 3SK thread earlier. It did seem to simplify where the attention should be in the swing, but I wonder if it would necessarily eliminate swing flaws like OTT, weight shift, etc, if those were already embedded. I did not feel I needed it. I checked out the price and it is CAN$57 plus shipping and handling from the US, which will easily end up around $75-$80.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: Early Release

Hi Brian,

We have both mentioned Joe Dante as having a large influence on our golf game. I would say he and his followers' teachings have had the most dramatic difference to my present simple, essentially thought-free swing. It seemed to tie together all the previously learned aspects of the swing, which I struggled with over the years. In regard to the previous learnings, I will never forget them, because there were a lot of trials along the way. That is good, because I will never again - come over the top, flip, etc.

I read a lot of the 3SK thread earlier. It did seem to simplify where the attention should be in the swing, but I wonder if it would necessarily eliminate swing flaws like OTT, weight shift, etc, if those were already embedded. I did not feel I needed it. I checked out the price and it is CAN$57 plus shipping and handling from the US, which will easily end up around $75-$80.

Ted

Ted,

The book has a whole section related to OTT swings with drills and imagery to combat it. It does not address things like weight shift as the belief is that if you are hitting in the sweet spot of every club, coming inside to inside, leading with the hands ahead of the clubface then the rest of the swing will take care of it's self. There is a fair bit on hitting a draw, the short game etc.

The book was around £18 when I purchased it and worth every penny. I just thought that if it was a reasonable price you would enjoy the book as a scholar of the game. I was already a fair golfer but it did improve my ball striking.

[yukon]

Re: Early Release

I bought the 3 skills book and it should arrive any day now. I will give it a try.

I played 18 holes today. I was very inconsistent which is to be expected when you are trying to implement something new. I feel very awkward because I am probably thinking way too much. I was thinking about where my hands are at the top and also trying to hold the lag and drop the arms on the way down. I did feel like I had a bit of a reverse pivot at times and was pushing it to the right on some shots and hooking it as well. Like I said very INCONSISTENT!
One thing that the right hand drill has shown me is the correct hand position or wrist cock at the top of the swing. I have been playing for 11 years not really knowing the correct position or even how to hold that wrist position on the way down. I would imagine that may sound crazy but I have been able to play like that and put up some decent scores at times. Like rotator said I think my hands and wrists were real tense causing me to flip it at impact. Afterwards on the range a friend suggested I try a drill where I hit the ball using only the left hand/arm and to try to square the club face by picturing the back of the left hand facing the target at impact. I only did this for a few minutes but found it pretty difficult. When I was able to hit the ball in that position it felt good though. Do these two drills go hand in hand? The one I just mentioned and the right hand drill?

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

Hi yukon,

From all of your posts on this thread and others, you seem to feel you have over the top, and early release problems. Now, you mention the reverse pivot. The problem with you feeling inconsistent could be because one of these basic fundamentals is off.

RP was an insidious one for me, when I had it. It seemed for me to be the ringleader, which caused the OTT. It could cause the early release as well. As I mentioned before, in my case, I did not realize I had the RP, as I thought I was merely working on making more of a shoulder turn and it seemed that I was achieving that. But I also found I was picking the arms up and over my head, instead of turning the shoulders. You can check for RP, by taking the swing to the top and then try to lift your front foot off the ground. If you struggle with this, you have not shifted your weight to the back leg, it's still on the front.

Go back to the drill in post#6 and make sure your shoulders turn properly. So, make the early set and as you make your backswing to the top, try to turn the shoulders (both, but the left one is the one you will visualize) to line up even with or past the right foot. The shoulder will be under your chin. If you accomplish this, guaranteed there is no RP. You will also be in a tremendously powerful position to launch your downswing, because you are coiled on the braced right foot. The rest of should fall into place, with weight shift of the lower body, hip and torso rotation (There is something I don't think about it, because it should happen somewhat naturally with the lower body shift and hip rotation, but the trailing elbow drops down down to the front of the hip (this can be seen in the video, which ben hogan provided in the earlier post) to support the swing, shoulders and arms swinging on plane in front of your turning torso (not dropping down behind you), retaining the early set, and natural release. Do this in slow-mo to feel comfortable, then build up the speed.

Honestly, I don't think about positions and such now. All I do is 1. preset (so don't think about it throughout the swing, and I retain it until it releases naturally), 2. turn my shoulders to line up with my back foot. From here, I'm loaded and in great position. 3. A slight shift gets it going and the rest seems to be instinctive. It may seem complicated because of the details I get into above, but that is only so I don't give you any reason to misstep. Once you get the idea, it does flow, and you can swing as hard as you want to, but you will be in control. As I keep saying, keep the grip and arms loose and able to react naturally.

It may be that eliminating the RP and making the proper shoulder turn is all you needed.

Good Luck,

Ted

[vp27519]

Re: Early Release

Ben,

Love the clip. Most importantly focusing/using the key of the right elbow being the first movement downward.

Thanks

[rotator]

Re: Early Release

vp, if you look at any instruction or stop action of great golfers, they are all there, even Furyk gets to the position from his untraditional backswing.

Ted