your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian

You wrote-: "I prefer the concept of using both arms to move the club through impact, the left as the steering arm and the right as the power source."

We obviously disagree. In a swinger's action, I believe that the left arm is the power source - via the release of power accumulator #4. I also believe that the right arm is the steering arm - via PP#3 tracing the straight plane line (as described in my review paper).

I don't mind if other golfers, like you, have a different opinion than me. I simply find Homer Kelley's TGM-description of how a golfer (who is a swinger) should power the golf swing very convincing.

I also think that there is nothing about Homer Kelley's power loading/release actions that implies that the swing is two-dimensional. The clubshaft is released on the inclined plane of the swing, which means that the clubshaft is moving three-dimensionally - down-and-out-and-forwards. The arm movement is also a three-dimensional movement, but the arms do not move on the surface of the inclined plane.

You wrote-: "The power and speed does not come solely from the unhinging action, most of it is produced as the clubface is rotated from an open position to a closed one."

Homer Kelley discussed that clubface roll-over action in his power accumulator model - it is the release of power accumulator #3, which occurs after the release of power accumulator #4 (the master PA) and power acumulator #2 (the velocity PA). Power accumulator #3 is called the transfer PA, because it transfers the power from the velocity PA to the ball. The power accumulator release sequence in a swinger is 4:2:3.

Bill - Homer Kelley does discuss the issue of what you incorrectly call the "true" impact point. The "true" impact point is when ball-clubface collision occurs, and not 3" after ball impact. HK states that the endpoint for power accumulator release is when both arms are fully straight - and that happens when the clubhead reaches the low point of the clubhead arc (which is the deepest part of the divot post-ball impact). The low point is usually opposite the left shoulder and it is a few inches ahead of the ball (but the precise amount in inches depends on where one places the ball relative to the low point of one's clubhead arc).

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian - I read the golf magazine article where TI stated that he wants to have the "feeling" of straightening the right wrist through impact (top two pictures). However, he never does that in his "real" world golf swing - he always has a FLW and bent right wrist at impact (like in that bottom picture).

He only looks like that middle picture at the end of his followthrough - well past impact, when both arms are straight.



Jeff.

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

hi Jeff
maybe i was wrong in calling the point a few inches in front of the ball the true impact point but it is the point in the swing that both arms are extended and that club head starts passing the hands and the swing stats to slow.
when swinging this is the point where you should have the maximum club head speed. you do slow when making contact with the ball but with no ball and no contact with the ground that is the point in the swing where you have maximum speed and after that you club head slows.
in my head i call it the true impact point and i find that thought helps me swing past the ball and not try and hit at the ball.
i find that knowing that my both arms extend only after the ball is on it way to the target stops me being a hitter and more a swinger of a golf club.
i found TGM a good book and not one you can read just once but have to keep going back to to more information. it is a hard book to read but i think the best ever on the mechanics of the golf swing.
been a while since i read it but will did it out again soon.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Jeff,

But the swing is dynamic and this is the position his wrists are moving into as he strikes the ball. You suggested that Bonnar's rotation of the wrists through impact was wrong but to get into Innelman's position that's what you have to do. Have you read Nick Bradley's book 'The seven laws of the golf swing'? this is exactly the same action as Nick and Trevor recommend. It is also the De-facto release used in a one plane swing.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Bill - I agree with you that the maximum clubhead speed should occur post-impact (if there was no ball to slow the club down). That "idea" fits in with HK's model of power accumulator release. The endpoint for release is when both arms are fully straight - and it occurs post-impact (when the clubhead is at the low point of its clubhead arc).

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian - Most professional golfers have a bent right wrist at impact and even post-impact, like Tiger Woods in this driver sequence.



I am familiar with Nick Bradleys "puck release" action.

Here is the photo from his book - showing a puck release.



A puck release is similar to AJ Bonar's hand crossover release action and it occurs passively in some professional golfers post-impact (and is similar to the passive push release used in the Hardy OPS), but AJ Bonar recommends an active crossover release action due to an active pronation of the right hand over the left hand.

I have never seen a professional golfer who didn't have a bent right wrist and FLW at impact. Most of them look like Aaron Baddeley in this next photo sequence.



Another point - I don't like Nick Bradley's puck release action because it involves a straightening right wrist (palmar flexion of the right wrist) and that causes the left wrist to bend (dorsiflex). I think that the right wrist must passively straighten post-impact - without bending the left wrist. This actually happens in TI's swing.



Note that the right wrist is straight, but it straightens without bending the left wrist. The left wrist is still flat and vertical, and it is moving to the left while remaining flat and vertical to the ground. Homer Kelley refers to this action as a horizontal hinging action, and it causes the clubface to close so that the clubface is horizontal to the ground post-impact.

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

The straightening of the right wrist and the bending of the left is the standard release with a rotary or one plane swing. It was used by Moe Norman and is still taught by followers of his swing. This is a powerful action that squares the clubface and must not be confused with a flipping of the wrists. As I said the action is dynamic and must be combined with a proper body weight shift . If you look at all the pictures their left wrist is flat at impact, the right is pushing through though.

What I am pointing out is there is more than one effective way to strike the ball so it is incorrect to suggest that any other way than Tiger Woods is wrong, even he hits poor shots at times.

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian,
I am confused at how you say club face closing is what produces speed and power (which I don't agree with) and then you show a pic of TI showing what appears to me to be a slapping release (which I do agree with).
Which on eof these do you advocate?

Good videos btw. I think that instructer makes it very simple for most to understand and I like how he swings on one plane with the arms moving across the body and doesn't lift his arms at all. I don't like the roll-over release nor how he says there is only one correct way to swing the club. What is correct? There are many effictive ways, but I can't say that one is correct. If you want to find the most efficient swing, then that title would go to Mike Austin. He not only proved it scientifically but he also had one of the fastest swing speeds ever for weight to height ratio, but I still wouldn't call it the correct way to swing.


Well, I just say your last post, and it seems we are in agreace with the how the wrist release through imapct. But i still think we disagree on how to obtain that.

I said it is the clubface moveing from an open to a closed position that creates speed and power, all these methods work to produce this. If not you would have no lag or release.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian - you state that the right wrist must straighten through impact, and you therefore imply that it must bend the left wrist when it straightens. However, that doesn't have to happen if a golfer uses a horizontal hinging action post-impact.

This series of posts has made me modify my impact chapter.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm


I have added question number 6 at the end of that chapter to deal with this issue.

This only represents my opinion, and you are free to hold an alternative opinion.

Jeff.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Golfinguy

I agree with you that clubface closing through impact doesn't produce much power. It represents the release of PA#3 in Homer Kelleys' TGM power accumulator loading/release model and most of the power in a swinger's 4:2:3 release action comes from the release of PA#4 and PA#2.

Jeff.

[rotator]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

I have come in late to this discussion, but I have to agree with Jeff about the impact position and with Jeff and Bill regarding the "release" position.

I have studied Moe Norman in minutiae, and played natural golf for two years. One of the key points about his swing and he demonstrated it in swinging lessons. The Natural Golf School teachings carry these basics through. As you know, he had an exceptional strong lateral move with his lower body, and actually increased his lag on the downswing. He explained and showed an exagerated stop action motion of what he felt he was doing through impact. He elaborated in (his special way) that he felt as if he was holding the lag position of his hands (arms and club shaft at 90 degrees like in the 1st picture of his sequence)) through to here, here being his hands extending down the line a foot past impact position. That's one of the reasons why he had one of the widest square hitting zones in golf. He, of course, then had a full release (which is what Brian's middle picture shows) and his trademark high follow through. Note: he says he feels like he's trying to do that, but obviously the club squares up through impact (between pictures 1 and 2).

Jeff's posting of Tiger Woods and Aaron Baddeley sequences show the same effect.

To further elaborate on these matters, I have to again refer to my favourite videos, Martin Hall on you tube, in which he also shows the "non-existant" impact position and what "release" is. As Bill said, "release" is the position past impact, and the point where both arms have straightened and the clubhead is at its furthest point away from the body in the golf swing (2nd frames of Norman's and Baddeley's sequences.

The first video (Martin Hall 1) shows the actions of the wrists and the "non-existant" impact position.

On that you tube page, you will see another video (Martin Hall 2), which shows "release".

I believe the message oin these videos have substance, and well worth watching carefully.

I haven't taken the time to study all that Jeff has to say, as I'm really busy, whacking off wallpaper that the previous owner has all over the house. I will read it, as it looks interesting.

One point is clear, as we keep seeing in the discussions on golf swings, there are different ways of doing it, and there are golfers who have a preference for one way or school of teaching. They are adamant that their way is the best, because it works for them. Some are rotary, one planers, handsey, early releasers, laggers, bowed wristers, strong/weak grips, you name it.

It's like Jim Furyk saying he's a new member newby on this forum and posts his video. He's going to have everyone up his a__, with suggestions.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Ok, so we are back to disagreeing. There is no power and very little speed that comes from the clubhead closing through impact (rotating the club about the axis of the shaft) Now there is rotation of the clubhead throughout the golf swing, but that isn't to produce power, that is something that happens. What about a baseball bat where there is no outer wieght from the shaft axis, there is no power or speed from rotating the bat about its axis and there is no need as far as accuracy, yet all good pro's do it, not to add power or speed, but becuase it happens as your arms pronate and supinate throughout the swing due to the need of your arms to "unlock" in order to acheive full range of motion. Pro's also lag the heck out of baseball bats and release them and it has nothing to do with the added speed or power from a weight on the outside of the shaft axis.

With due respect I dont think you understand me. When I talk of the clubface moving from open to closed I mean open at the halfway down position and closed in the halfway follow through position, not through a few inches at impact, as I keep saying we are looking at a dynamic movement that progressively changes . If this action is not used there will be no lag or release thus creating a weak casting action.

[BrianW]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian - you state that the right wrist must straighten through impact, and you therefore imply that it must bend the left wrist when it straightens. However, that doesn't have to happen if a golfer uses a horizontal hinging action post-impact.

This series of posts has made me modify my impact chapter.

See - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm


I have added question number 6 at the end of that chapter to deal with this issue.

This only represents my opinion, and you are free to hold an alternative opinion.

Jeff.

Jeff,

No, I dont state that it "must straighten" I am saying that you can use a swing that pushes the right wrist through impact and some in-fact do, this is a dynamic action and the left wrist is indeed flat at the moment of impact and accelerating through to keep the clubface square for a little longer. Of course this is not the only way to swing the club but should not be dismissed as wrong.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

Brian

I have changed my thinking a lot since reading the TGM book.

For instance, I don't believe that one should try and keep the clubface square for longer. In Homer Kelley's world that represents "steering" and he states that a golfer should never steer the club. The clubhead arc has to be perfectly circular and there should be no time point in the clubhead arc where the clubhead travels "straighter". He also stated that the clubface has a certain rate of clubface closure through impact, which is controllable by the left hand - via the mechanism of hinging actions. The natural hinging action for a swinger is a horizontal hinging action. During a horizontal hinging action, the left wrist remains flat and vertical as it rotates to the left. A horizontal hinging action requires a small degree of left hand roll-over action post-impact. That can be seen in this next photo of Ernie Els.



Image 1 shows Ernie at the end of the followthrough - when both arms are straight. He is employing horizontal hinging - note that the clubface is horizontal to the ground due to the hand roll-over action induced by a horizontal hinging action. Note that both the left wrists and the right wrist are flat. In other words, it is possible to straighten the right wrist while keeping the left wrist flat if one employs a horizontal hinging action.

A key point in Homer Kelley's swinger's action is that the right arm is never used to power the swing. The right wrist straightening action through impact is passive from a power perspective. One never "hits" with the right hand in the late downswing if one is a swinger. The right hand straightening action is totally passive, and the right hand only straightens so that it can keep its postion on the grip relative to the left hand, which is rotating slightly as it moves to the left (this roll-over rotation of the left hand is due to external rotation of the left humerus in the left shoulder socket joint and not due to any independent wrist/hand roll-over action).

Homer Kelley also describes two other types of hinging actions - angled hinging and vertical hinging. Golfers who employ angled hinging usually don't straighten the right wrist as much post-impact, and many keep the right wrist bent all the way to the finish - like Nick Faldo in the next photo.



Nick Flado is utilising a "hold-off finish" action that works very well with either an angled or vertical hinging action during the followthrough. Some people refer to that action, where the right wrist remains bent through impact, and well beyond impact, as a push release action.

Jeff.

[bill reed]

Re: your thoughts on TGM i.e homer keller, acumulators ect.

hi Jeff
i do see how TGM applies to most of the modern types of swings and most of the playing coming on tour seen to have the same type of swing now.
i do think that what you call steering the club does work. you only have to look at Lee Trevino and Fred Couples to see that they steer the club. but it don't think it so much steering as stopping the right hand rolling over the left. i don't see how this is a handicap and i myself play this way.
10 yeas ago i played the way Brian plays and i did hit longer but not so consistently. i found it hard to get that (AG Bonner) little home run.
i know Brian has good hand timing and plays well with it but i found playing with an open stance and swinging Trevino style works and works well for me. most of what is said in TMG is for a draw swing and uses the turning of the wrists. the book does say the turning of the wrists happed and are not controlled which as you say AG Bonner does try and turn the wrists on purpose.
i could never get the AG Bonner system to work for me and i found a lot of the things he said disagreed with Homer book and i do tend to side with Homer more than Bonner.
if you apply Trevino's swing to the book then it should not work or at least not work as well as it does.
i have been playing with Trevino swing system since 1978 and i changed to a draw swing in the early 90s when a pro golfer friend talked me into playing a draw but i went back to Trevino after about 10 years.
have you read any books by Mindy Blake. his reflex system where what you do in the backswing sets up what happens in the downswing. some of that was touched in Homers book.
cheers
bill