Hit Down Dammit!

[writer4653]

Hi I am Clive Scarff, the author of Hit Down Dammit! As you know, all good players hit down at the ball, but hitting down is somewhat counterintuitive. Knowing to do something does not always equate to being able to do something. Let alone understanding.

I am starting this thread to answer any questions you may have about hitting down, or the golf swing in general. I look forward to hearing from you!

Clive Scarff
www.hitdowndammit.com

[BrianW]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Hi Clive,

We have had a number of threads here regarding "Hitting Down on the ball" Would you not agree that in fact we must hit into the back of the ball as the clubface actually impacts the ball below it's equator? I read somewhere that a good thought is to strike the top of the ball with the top of the clubface.

You will also see on this site many references to the 3Skills system of learning golf and the book "Nail It". This system advocated a 'hit down' philosophy like yours with the shaft leaning forward but qualifies it by the golfer using an image of the club having no loft (the face is a direct extension of the shaft) this image makes it easier to visualise the club hitting down.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

When hitting down, obviously the golfer wants to contact the ball before the ground, or have their divot start after impacting the ball. In other words the the low point of the swing arc is after the ball has been hit. So, what aspects of the golf swing contribute to a consistant low point in the swing arc?

I see alot of high handicappers who's low point in their swing arc varies over a 6" area in their swing. They hit the ball fat, thin, and even correctly, using what they believe are their own, same swing mechanics. Obviously their swing mechanics are changing from swing to swing. If a golfer could arrive at a consistant low point in their swing, there is no telling how many strokes they would save because they are hitting the ball first, more times than not. I have read that one of the positive points of the stack & tilt swing is a consistant low point in the swing because the golfer's weight stays some what on their front foot through impact. GJS

[rotator]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

When hitting down, obviously the golfer wants to contact the ball before the ground, or have their divot start after impacting the ball. In other words the the low point of the swing arc is after the ball has been hit. So, what aspects of the golf swing contribute to a consistant low point in the swing arc?

I see alot of high handicappers who's low point in their swing arc varies over a 6" area in their swing. They hit the ball fat, thin, and even correctly, using what they believe are their own, same swing mechanics. Obviously their swing mechanics are changing from swing to swing. If a golfer could arrive at a consistant low point in their swing, there is no telling how many strokes they would save because they are hitting the ball first, more times than not. I have read that one of the positive points of the stack & tilt swing is a consistant low point in the swing because the golfer's weight stays some what on their front foot through impact. GJS

There has been a lot of discussions about hitting down. My thought was I don't know if it's necessary to conscientiously think about hitting down.

I believe that the divots after the ball (the effect of hitting down) is a result of the proper weight shift (the SoG of you body shifts ahead) and the hands being ahead of the club face in the downswing (so the club comes down on a more vertical path). I don't do the stack and tilt, but that illustrates the principle; the weight stays in the front, so the SoG is already shifted forward shift and the vertical path is already programmed.

A good golfer does the SoG (weight shift) very well, whereas the casual golfer will not shift the weight efficiently back to the rear (extreme case would be reverse pivot) and forward (extreme case would be hanging back and flipping).

As an illustration, emulate a down/through swing motion, without a club, and finish with the weight on your front foot and on the toes of your back foot, with the back knee kissing the front leg. You will see from this simple movement that the SoG (say the sternum) is shifting ahead a few inches during the swing from the starting address position. In an actual swing, you will be moving your hips, as well.

I ordered the E-Book of Hitting Down Dammit a few years ago, and practiced it. I was really struggling with solid contact at that time. I seem to recall one of the drills was to practice hitting down at the back of the ball position, with the back hand bent backwards at the wrist.

Ted

[writer4653]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Hi Brian,

I noticed the threads, so I thought it might be nice to get all the hitting down questions and thoughts into one area.

With respect to "Would you not agree that in fact we must hit into the back of the ball as the clubface actually impacts the ball below it's equator?" I would say that there is a difference between what happens, and what we try to do. If you try to hit down at the ball, you may indeed find that the clubface hits the back of the ball - though not likely below the equator (physics would dictate that you would have to be hitting up to hit the lower half of a sphere without hitting the top half of that sphere when the sphere is sitting on the ground). But if you were to tell someone "hit into the back of the ball and make sure the clubface impacts the ball below its equator" the swing would change entirely. The weight would hang back and the strike at the ball would become a lateral one, rather than a downward one, and the results would include a push, a lack of rotation, a skull etc etc.

It is great that Nail It promotes hitting down. I should add though that hitting down is not a new method, and 10 out of 10 golf professionals will tell you you need to hit down at the golf ball. "Hit Down Dammit!" simply explains hitting down to the amateur who either didn't know to hit down, or was confused about how.

The visual of a club with no loft is a good one, as what confuses an amateur golfer is the loft of the club. As I say in my book, because of the shape of the ball and the loft of the golf club it "looks" like the idea is to get the loft under the ball, and from there all the mistakes are made.

In Hit Down Dammit! I use the image of a hockey player hitting a slapshot, where the stick is actually lofted down at impact, taking away any mistaken notion that the idea is to get under the puck. Interestingly, in hockey this is to prevent the puck from rising too high (and going over the net).

I look forward to continuing this discussion, and I can see some more interesting observations are coming in already!

[bill reed]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

hi
i have always though hitting down on the ball to be the wrong way to think and to have that thought in your mind is a bad one. if you pick a point and inch in front of the ball as your impact point i find you have a freer swing and make better contact too.
many high handicap players see the back of the ball as the target and actually slow down there swing down just before impact instead of swing through the ball to an impact point past the ball.
hitting down on the ball and pinching it into the ground to put spin is another though that it put about in lots off book. clean contact on the sweet spot is a better way to think than hitting into the back of the ball.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your reply.

We have discussed the point of hitting down and whether the ball is actually squeezed into the turf extensively on another thread here.

I understand that it is probably a good swing thought to consider hitting downwards into the ball so that the hands lead the clubhead, what I cannot subscribe to is that the clubface actually contacts the ball above it's equator, it actually contacts it below, your point on physics does not take into account that the loft is leaning backwards, it would need to lean forward to strike above the equator.

Here is a video club from you that shows this clearly happening:

[writer4653]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Again my point is "what is happening" vs "what you are trying to make happen". If you aim for the top of the ball with a downward swing you may indeed contact the bottom of the ball with a downward strike. But tell anyone to intentionally aim for the bottom of the ball and they will instinctively hit up at it, skulling it or hitting fat. The entire swing changes when you try to hit up at the bottom of the ball. It is a dangerous direction, swing-wise.

[BrianW]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Again my point is "what is happening" vs "what you are trying to make happen". If you aim for the top of the ball with a downward swing you may indeed contact the bottom of the ball with a downward strike. But tell anyone to intentionally aim for the bottom of the ball and they will instinctively hit up at it, skulling it or hitting fat. The entire swing changes when you try to hit up at the bottom of the ball. It is a dangerous direction, swing-wise.

Yes, that's a good point

[dagosa]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Thank you for initiating this discussion. I have maintained,that for me, the intent of hitting down on a ball during the swing did little to establish success. Being aware of club construction ahead of time, with the designer's intent, did more to promote proper swing preparation than anything. Trying to hit down on the ball is like trying to hit down on the ball in baseball, a fallacy promoted for many years resulting in poor contact. A sport I coached for 25 years had hitting set back years with this attitude. Swinging up on the BACK of the ball gets more consistent results for baseball. But, no attempt to swing up should be made as well. It tends to happen "naturally" when weight center is kept behind hitting area which is well out in front. (baseball's moment of truth)

"Cutting" a table tennis ball, or tennis ball, or golf ball, to initiate contact and impart spin, while hitting the BACK of the ball can only be achieved with proper swing prep and weight distribution. Trying to hit the back of the ball with a downward trajectory with a club head kept at proper designed angle with weight slightly ahead, results in a divot after the ball. The farther I more the ball back, the steeper the attack angle, the longer the divot. But during the swing....
NO OTHER THOUGHT is necessary or needed for me other than hitting the back of the ball. Work with the design intent of the club...it will happen.

Many thanks again.

[bill reed]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Thank you for initiating this discussion. I have maintained,that for me, the intent of hitting down on a ball during the swing did little to establish success. Being aware of club construction ahead of time, with the designer's intent, did more to promote proper swing preparation than anything. Trying to hit down on the ball is like trying to hit down on the ball in baseball, a fallacy promoted for many years resulting in poor contact. A sport I coached for 25 years had hitting set back years with this attitude. Swinging up on the BACK of the ball gets more consistent results for baseball. But, no attempt to swing up should be made as well. It tends to happen "naturally" when weight center is kept behind hitting area which is well out in front. (baseball's moment of truth)

"Cutting" a table tennis ball, or tennis ball, or golf ball, to initiate contact and impart spin, while hitting the BACK of the ball can only be achieved with proper swing prep and weight distribution. Trying to hit the back of the ball with a downward trajectory with a club head kept at proper designed angle with weight slightly ahead, results in a divot after the ball. The farther I more the ball back, the steeper the attack angle, the longer the divot. But during the swing....
NO OTHER THOUGHT is necessary or needed for me other than hitting the back of the ball. Work with the design intent of the club...it will happen.

Many thanks again.

hi
i agree with all that Dagosa says above.
if you think of a clubs design and that it made to do a certain job then you would not flip or hit down when using a golf club.
if you think of the diffrence of a 1 iron through to a 60% wedge then its not just the length of shaft and loft the changes but also the lean of the shaft.
with a one iron the shaft it almost straight up at address but with a wedge it leans forward. so you have to play the ball further back in your stance but your hand will lead more with a wedge than with a one iron, it will also mean you make contact before you reach the bottom of your swing ark where with a one iron you will be at the bottom of the ark when contact with the ball.
if you let the clubs work the way they were designed to then you tend to swing more through the ball than try and hit at at the ball.
there is no need to "HIT" but rather swing through where the ball is.
how many players make really good practice swings with no ball then make a diffrent swing when they go to hit the ball off the tee.
cheers
bill

[dagosa]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

hi
i agree with all that Dagosa says above.
if you think of a clubs design and that it made to do a certain job then you would not flip or hit down when using a golf club.
if you think of the diffrence of a 1 iron through to a 60% wedge then its not just the length of shaft and loft the changes but also the lean of the shaft.
with a one iron the shaft it almost straight up at address but with a wedge it leans forward. so you have to play the ball further back in your stance but your hand will lead more with a wedge than with a one iron, it will also mean you make contact before you reach the bottom of your swing ark where with a one iron you will be at the bottom of the ark when contact with the ball.
if you let the clubs work the way they were designed to then you tend to swing more through the ball than try and hit at at the ball.
there is no need to "HIT" but rather swing through where the ball is.
how many players make really good practice swings with no ball then make a diffrent swing when they go to hit the ball off the tee.
cheers
bill

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[rotator]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Hi Bill Reed,

I am curious, as to your take on the details in my earlier post (#4) on this thread.

I've not been concerned with hitting down over the past several years. At one time, because of faulty swing mechanics, I hit many thin shots, as the ball marks were only wearing the bottom 3 grooves on the face. I had difficulty taking divots, without conscientiously thinking about ways of "hitting down".

But, since I was able to get my weight shifted properly to the front and had my hands ahead of the club head on the down/through swing, the divot ahead of the ball is a natural result.

Is this too simple an explanation?

Ted

[bill reed]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

hi rotator
my take for what its worth is if you don't take any divot with say a 7 iron to a wedge then your playing the ball at the bottom of your swing ark and not before as you should.
by playing the ball further back and understanding that the hands will be further forward with the shorter clubs, ie hands lead the club head when you swing. complete the swing to a high finish and the ball just gets in the way of the club.
i use to play looking at the back of the ball and trying to hit the ball but the results were poor. sometimes taking a divot, sometimes digging great holes and sometimes catching the ball in the middle. when i started to swing without the ball my swing looked okay but i would go into a hit the ball mindset and i was all over the place.
when i changed to looking an inch or two in front of the ball my swing improved and i started to understand why a golf club worked,
i was not trying to manipulate the club any more.
i do think some of us (not all) play better thinking of swinging the club head past the impact zone and not getting caught up with hitting the ball.
i am one of the guys who don't believe you can pinch the ball with the ground and the club face and also that you can't hit down on the ball because of the loft of a club. you have to hit the ball below the equator with every club, even the driver but the driver is the closest to hitting the ball neat the equator.
Dagosa pointed out we both play pings and think the same way so maybe it believing in you have the best clubs and trusting them to work for you and use them as they were designed, i believe they were designed to be swung in an ark and that ark is set as much by the shaft length as by the golfers swing. short irons are meant to make contact with the ball before the bottom of the swing ark and then the ground taking a divot. the long irons are swung on a longer ark and make contact closer to the bottom of the swing ark giving you more a sweeping shot with the long irons. there is no change to the way you swing only where in the swing ark you play the ball and that is set by the clubs you use and the lean of the shaft for each club and the face loft used.
this is my view and I'm not saying that hitting down don't work or that it works for some but did not work for me and made my game harder. the last 20 years i have been more a swinger than a hitter and i feel i play better because of it.


cheers
bill

[rotator]

Re: Hit Down Dammit!

Hi Bill,

I believe we are on the same track, with a different way of expressing what happens in a "no hitting down thinking swing".

You talk about how the practice swing without the ball and taking it to a high finish invariably results in a swing you would want your real swing to be. The ball gets in the way of the swing of the club and the club bottoms out at the appropriate location. Most golfers will agree with this notion, which they have done swinging at dandelion flowers and asking themselves why they could not make that same swing with the ball in play. When the ball is in front of them and they make the real swing, they do not make the same free flowing swing. As you say, the actual swing becomes disjointed. Specifically, the weight shift, either back or forward, is forgotten, the body hangs back (actually many players fall backwards in their followthrough), the arms and hands throw themselves at the ball with a flipping hitting motion. Oh, how well I remember my nasty swings of this sort, and it creeps in from time to time.

The way I illustrate what you are saying is that, if your weight properly shifts to the back and then to the front, and if your hands lead the club head, and you swing through the ball to a proper finish, the club will have to bottom out at the proper location. ( i.e. the center of gravity of the body will have shifted forward a few inches, and the hands will be ahead of the ball coming into impact, to result in the proper bottoming out.

Ted