Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

[Yggdrasil]

Here's my rant: (9.8hcp, 54years old)
I'm tall and my swing smoothness has always been something of a problem. The past couple of years, I've been working on stability and smoothness, with some success, reducing my hdcp.
Stack and Tilt actually helped me quite a bit, but I still had this feeling of sort of jerking the club here and there. I also went kind of stiff in my hips and lost a lot of distance, though my accuracy was far better.
Then I saw these YouTube videos with Ben Hogan - one with Ben himself, talking about starting with your hips. I immediately realized what I'd lost, and sure enough, my distance started coming back. This with Stack and Tilt lessons learned, and occasionally I got some really Fluid shots.

This really got me excited about Ben, as you can imagine, and I started watching all the Ben Hogan YouTube videos. Then I found this one:

My followthrough has always sort of flown a bit to right field and jerked to a stop (OK, exaggeration, but U get it), and when I tried this guys advice, I suddenly got this amazingly smooth followthrough that I've never had before. I've hit buckets and buckets and buckets trying to make it permanent, but on the course I only get, say, 5-15 of these really nice shots during a round. Sometimes I struggle to make it smooth on the driving range, too.
But when I hit these shots, I can only say it is just fantastic. Totally effortless, smooth, nice high finish in total balance. Pure ecstasy. My distance is wonderful, accuracy astonishing, and ball flight seems perfect. Neither too high as is common with me, or too low. I know it is not just my imagination, because even my friends say "wow!", or even go silent watching these shots.
So you know what I want. I want this fantastic fluid shot to be me, permanently.
What I am feeling,when I hit well, is that I take the club away on path to a wrist set (important, otherwise over-the top), then come "right through" my right hip, which rolls out of the way, while my hips power the swing. Then I get this left arm roll around my right knee (see video), and this seems to "pull" my club through with total fluidity. I say Fluidity, because that is how it feels. Not smooth, Fluid. No effort, totally in balance. Wonderful feeling. I don't care if my hdcp goes to 20 if I can just feel that swing for 18 holes every time out.
You know 95% of the pros on TV seem to have that same fluidity (not all!). But it seems so elusive! I've got it, then I don't. It's there, just taunting me, then it somehow slips away. If you have ever seen Raphael Jacquelin, you know what I'm talking about.
There must be a lot of golfers that know what I'm talking about, and can give me some tips.
Help?

[Matt10]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

Are you saying that you don't experience this fluidity all the time since your new found discoveries?

If so - the answer is simple - practice and ingrain that feeling to get fluidity in your swing.

Seems to me that this is more mental than anything though. I've read the book by Tom Bertrand (2nd video) and it is a great one, I suggest you do the same if you haven't already. I also suggest going to his website and downloading the workbook which gives several practice methods.

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

Yeah, I'm going strong on the principle "practice makes permanent". But still, it seems elusive - suddenly I can't get that fluid motion. Normally I notice that I'm blocking a bit - I tend to rotate less on difficult shots, sometimes I just don't seem able to close the face... hips too fast? Then I start searching, trying to "get it back".... it's that elusiveness I want to get rid of. Hopefully repetition, repetition, repetition will fix it, I don' know. Just asking, there must be hundreds out there who have "gotten it".

[bill reed]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

hi Matt
i found Tom Bertrand book "the secret of hogans swing" to be a big disapointment. 107 pages off the 171 page book are about how Tom meet John Schlee and how he and Hogan played together many times and Hogan taught him the secret. but Hogan says he had never met John Schlee and did not remember his name or can think of ever meeting him and certainly not playing golf with him? Hogan would not write a forward for the book as he said he did not know this guy?.
i found the 70 pages on tips and drills to be useful but there was no secret. everything in the book had been published before.
if the book had only been the 70 odd pages then for me it wolud of been a better book.
interesting to know your views on the book.
cheers
bill

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

Pretty good, golfinguy28. I hadn't gotten so far as to apply the same principle to my right arm, but just sitting here at the PC I can feel that fluid motion by supinating my right arm in BS, and left arm in downswing.
Good tip, I'll feel it out next time the range opens (it's snowed down, but raining now.....)

[kbp]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

congrats on the "new swing", hope it keeps for you

The "sercet" in this guys video is so simple if you have had any independant thought of how the body works. Supinate (like he does through impact) your left arm all the way. Then try to make a backswing, you can't your arm is "locked" up. Now pronate it the whole way and now make a BS, its easy to do. From the top, stay pronated as far as you can, and then just let the left arm drop, I bet it wil start decellerating when it nears your hips and it won'nt go very far past them. now this time get to the top, and supinate your left arm as you let the club fall and you will find acceleration through the impact area. Gravity is accelerating it. That left arm supination isn't ADDing and power or speed, but it is "unlocking" your arm and allowing that speed to naturally be produced. That is why I don't care what anyone says, your right arm will/does/ has to supinate in the BS and the left has to supinate in the DS if you want to hit the ball with anyforce. You are not adding any power by this, you are allowing the power to be transmited more naturally by what I like to think of as "unlocking" your body. The golf swing is about body postions....

I figured this out by breaking down the swing, not studying videos, or reading, or researching. Just by making a pendulum motion with my left arm, and realizing that as my left arm crosses my torso, it has to turn. Without a hip or shoulder turn (you shoudlers will adduct and abduct but no active turning). just let your left arm swing like a pendulum rotating it naturally, then do it with your right arm. You will find that there is no need to actuviley turn your arm and if relaxed and tension free, the arm will turn by itself when it crosses the torso (moving from left to right foot).

That is why in the BS you want to feel as if the club is behind you or beside you (more towards the heels vs. the toes). If it is towards the toes in the BS (what some people refer too as upright) there is really no need to turn the left or right arm in the BS and no need to do in in the DS and you will be very weak. I don't Hogan's swing "flat", I call it normal, and I don't call an upright swing and upright swing, I call it a weak swing. The only power you are going to get by having an upright swing is by rerouting it as many pros do so that the arm ends up across the torso not out from it. A one plane swing is a good golf swing, a 2-plane swing is really a no-plane lift and turn later rerouted (after some loss in range of motions) to a 1 plane swing so that thye can have some power in it.

Don't be afraid do think outside the box and break the swing down and learn how your body natually works and you will find yourself with a much better understanding of how the golf swing works, and you will hit much further and straiter.

You are heading down the right path in your findings and more importantly in your method of learning. Obviously the rotation of the club face about the axis of the shaft, in and of itself, adds very little additional momentum to the collision (the axis of rotation being so much smaller relative to the swing arc), but as you have found, there are other mechanisms involved in the action.

[rotator]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

hi Matt
i found Tom Bertrand book "the secret of hogans swing" to be a big disapointment. 107 pages off the 171 page book are about how Tom meet John Schlee and how he and Hogan played together many times and Hogan taught him the secret. but Hogan says he had never met John Schlee and did not remember his name or can think of ever meeting him and certainly not playing golf with him? Hogan would not write a forward for the book as he said he did not know this guy?.
i found the 70 pages on tips and drills to be useful but there was no secret. everything in the book had been published before.
if the book had only been the 70 odd pages then for me it wolud of been a better book.
interesting to know your views on the book.
cheers
bill

Hi Bill,

I find it quite amusing what Hogan allegedly said about not knowing Schlee.

Regards,

Ted

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

if you want to know a real secret.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__bAu...ideos/cab2.htm

Ha ha! That was really and excellent little clip, and I "got" the secret! That may have been one of the funniest links I've ever gotten, under the circumstances.
But in number 4:

He says "they've got a swinging spine"????? Or what does he say? And what does That mean?
That guy is really funny!

[Matt10]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

hi Matt
i found Tom Bertrand book "the secret of hogans swing" to be a big disapointment. 107 pages off the 171 page book are about how Tom meet John Schlee and how he and Hogan played together many times and Hogan taught him the secret. but Hogan says he had never met John Schlee and did not remember his name or can think of ever meeting him and certainly not playing golf with him? Hogan would not write a forward for the book as he said he did not know this guy?.
i found the 70 pages on tips and drills to be useful but there was no secret. everything in the book had been published before.
if the book had only been the 70 odd pages then for me it wolud of been a better book.
interesting to know your views on the book.
cheers
bill

Bill - nice to be back at GTO now that a round or two is nearing and my golfing mind begins. Okay, it never really stopped.

I think you are right, there was no true secret discussed. It was a marketable approach, but provided more history than anything. I wasn't very interested on why Maximum golf became a leader in the long-putter, I didn't really care honestly - give me the info I need and let's move on. John Schlee sounded like an incredible individual - reminded me some like Mike Austin - but I appreciate what he did for Tom and am glad information was there to be had.

The book as a book, was a great read for me, but for an instructional one - not so much. You know me, I have never been one to get into the technical discussion because I am a hands-on learner, and Tom did very well in divulging the 'secret' in a manner that I could relate to. The interaction between Schlee and Hogan was very interesting as well. As for the mystery of Hogan knowing Schlee - well, I don't think we can ever confirm that be true or not - we all know how secretive Mr. Ben was, but our lack of knowledge on Schlee deems marketing ploy as well - gotta take it all with a grain of salt and choose to believe what you want to.

For the record, I believe Tom and believe what he has to say, he e-mailed me the other day to let me know he updated his youtube videos, so it's nice to know I can probably ask him specific questions if I absolutely need to.

[bill reed]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

hi Matt
thanks for your reply and i think you sum the book up very well in as an instruction book it was not so great but in telling the story of Schlee and what he archived and Tom story of knowing and learning from him, he does a good job and you can't help thinking of what a great man John Schlee was.
i think Tom does come across as a honest guy how told it as he saw it and was told by John Schlee.
cheers
bill

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

That is why I don't care what anyone says, your right arm will/does/ has to supinate in the BS and the left has to supinate in the DS if you want to hit the ball with anyforce. You are not adding any power by this, you are allowing the power to be transmited more naturally by what I like to think of as "unlocking" your body.

OK, Golfinguy28, Thank you very, very much. The snow melted enough to play (in 1/2" water, fair enough), and I tried suppinating my Right Arm, with just a bucket to warm up.

I've never hit so many beautiful shots in one round, and had 3 birdies, which ain't bad, considering the conditions. I was a good 5o meters past my buddy, we'd been even until I started listining to Old Dead Golfers (Ben Hogan). The birdies attest to the accuracy, the 50m the distance (fair enough, conditions were terrible and he was not as long as normal), but I was a good 20m longer, and he insisted a solid 35m (maybe he just wants to get strokes on the bets next time).

Anyway, this was a revalation, Golfinguy28, my new best buddy. I didn't remember the details of your message, but the exact feeling I had was that I "unlocked" my backswing. And I look, and lo and behold, that is exactly what you said!

I hit more fluid shots under these horrible conditions than I have ever had in one round (there was literally a snowman still standing in the middle of hole 12, and it both poured rain and blew the last four holes. At +4C, it was no picnic!)

Thank you, thank you!

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

Yeah, my partner was pretty impressed with my play, and I had to let him in on the "secret" on the back 9. He's over 60, and not so limber as the 20-year-olds. But what was interesting was he started _Over swinging_ when supinated his right arm in BS. Talk about "unlocking" your body!

I also supinate on my pitches, and that has actually changed my distances - so I need to spend some time building that into my pitching game.

Big hopes for the 2009 season!

Thanks
Charles

[jambalaya]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

This guy also talks about supination and pronation and rolling the left arm. I tried, while sitting at my desk, to roll the left arm without rolling the wrists or hands and it seemed rather difficult. Gonna try it with a club tonight.

[rotator]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

Hi jambalaya,

It may feel uncomfortable or un-natural, because you are sitting in the chair, and not fully engaging the body/shoulder turn at the same time. The arms should be engaged with the body, and not run away on their own. Stand up and try it.

That guy sevam is something. Check out the number of views on that video. He has another, which has a lot more.

Ted

[Yggdrasil]

Re: Fluid Swing: Found but elusive

This guy also talks about supination and pronation and rolling the left arm.

Hei jambalaya -

Yes, this is the video that got me started! (I couldn't find it again when I posted, so I found another "supination" video).

The guy with the broom is who got me going on this "fluid swing" rant....