Never get tired of watching this

[rotator]

[LowPost42]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

He sets his wrists waaaaaaay to early. LOL

[rotator]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Yeah, he's got a lot of problems in that swing.

There was a comment on the you tube page, something like: you can have a bad technique in any sport, and you can still manage to play well; but if you have great technique, the chances are better.

Ted

[qassim]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Good work rotator. That's a great video.

There are some very interesting points in that video that seem to go against much of the conventional golf swing teaching;

1. Not much hip rotation on the back swing

2. On the downswing - the first movement is not with a turn of the left hip.

Doesn't this make you question some of the conventional teaching that overplay the above 2 points. These 2 things will play a part in a great golf swing but they are very subtle - the way it tends to be taught leads to many people thinking that these are 'big movements' when in fact they are not. People then spend to much time consciously thinking about these to the detriment of the overall swing.

[LowPost42]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Look again, Q - that hip is the first thing to move coming down. It's tough to see with the dark video and the black pants, but it's completely started with the hip turn. But there's certainly doesn't seem to be any concious hip rotation there on the way back... and look how absolutely wide open his hips and shoulders are at impact! (OK, hips more than shoulders, but still!)

[qassim]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Lowpost - you're absolutely right about the hip turn starting the downswing but as you say you have to look pretty hard to notice it.

That was the point that I was trying to make - it is very subtle. In a lot of the teaching it doesn't come across that way so you see loads of people trying to make big, conscious hip movements which inevitably end up having a detrimental effect on the swing.

It's the same with advice like 'make sure you transfer weight' - it should be subtle.

If you're flexible enough (as tiger is) surely, according to Jim Maclean's teaching, having no (or very little) hip turn on the back swing should create a bigger X factor and therefore more power.

You're also right about the open hips and shoulders at impact - does this again point to conventional teaching being wrong ? OR does it come back to the 3 skills philosophy that body positions don't matter and its all about what your club is doing at impact - Discuss.

[rotator]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Hi Gassim,

Clearly, Tiger has shifted his weight to the back, but it is not a violent lateral move. Then, when his hips and legs have shifted the weight to the front with a small but fast lateral move (it looks like when his hands are about shoulder height), the primary power motion is the rotation of the hips around the posted front leg. If you look at videos of Viggegas you will see this also. A lot of the pros work on that move, as they find themselves getting into throwing their hips too much laterally down the line.

The open hips is not that unconventional, Most good golfers get there. Check out videos of your avatar, Jim Furyk, Bobby Jones, Byron Nelson, virtually all. Even the lateral shifters, at impact are open at the hips. I think the unconventional hip position would be like the Natural Golf swing, with the extreme lateral move down the line, with the body hips and knees still facing forward.

As you say, one can play well by striking the ball like A J Bonnar, but additional power is generated by the efficient application of torsion and speed built up from the ground, through the legs, hips, torso shoulders, arms and hands. You have to be very strong and flexible to do what Tiger's swing looks like. Our muscles and ligaments would not support that swing and would break down.

One other observation. Put the cursor on the top of Tiger's head and keep it there, while you watch the swing. The head does not move much. He does not drop into his compression mode, as he does sometimes when he really wants to go hard at the ball on a par five. I suppose this is his normal swing.

Ted

[gatorguy146]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

A lot of pros have that same move where the hips don't come back very far, but they are the first move down which allows them to "clear" creating an enormous amount of torque. Look at someone like Anthony Kim, he does the same thing, his hips move very little on the takeaway but clear so quickly and that's how he's able to be in the top 10 in driving distance while only being 5'10". I tried incorporating this move into my swing last year but it ended up hurting my back and creating a huge pull hook in my swing. I've been able to change it to where my first move down I feel like I'm pulling the club down from the top then use my core muscles to create more velocity as the club gets closer to impact. Idk if it's right or wrong but it's working right now and I'm afraid to try and change it lol.

[LowPost42]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Another cool thing (prompted by Gator's post) is this: Put your cursor beside Tigers' head. He moves off the ball a little as a result of turning back, moves slightly towards the target as his downswing begins but then moves further away then the top of his backswing at impact. All that torque and still manages to stay behind the ball.

[Neil18]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

the primary power motion is the rotation of the hips around the posted front leg.

There's only one little bit of your post I don't totally agree with really. Small point, but still.

There's a lot of weight still on Tigers right foot when he's swinging down and coming into impact. Getting onto ones lead foot too early is sinful. Weight goes where the club is.

[LowPost42]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

There's only one little bit of your post I don't totally agree with really. Small point, but still.

There's a lot of weight still on Tigers right foot when he's swinging down and coming into impact. Getting onto ones lead foot too early is sinful. Weight goes where the club is.

Look again, Neil - the right heel is already coming off the ground indicating that the weight is mostly left. Now, that's not to say he's "raced out in front" but the weight distribution is certainly favouring the left side.

[Neil18]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Look again, Neil - the right heel is already coming off the ground indicating that the weight is mostly left. Now, that's not to say he's "raced out in front" but the weight distribution is certainly favouring the left side.

Hmmm. I can, without doubt, lift my right heel and still have most of my weight on the ball of my right foot.

And I don't know why I'd want to lift my right heel until it starts to come up of its own accord during impact to help the turn through.

[rotator]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

I don't think you really can have much of a rotation of the hips and upper body, shoulders and arms, unless your weight is mostly on the front leg and you are using that leg as the brace/pivot point. Otherwise, you will still have to shift the weight through, while and after the hips and upper body are rotating/have rotated. It would be like a baseball pitcher making his upper body and arm throwing motions and rotating while still on his back leg, before his front leg is planted. Very difficult to do, there would not be any momentum, and not very powerful, unless you believe the speed and power of the swing comes primarily from the pushing off of your weight by the back leg. I would think I'd fall backwards and compensate by throwing my hands in this case.

Ted

[gatorguy146]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

You also have to remember that Tiger is probably the most flexible and in-shape golfer the world has ever seen, he can do things with his body that no one else can.

To me it looks like his weight has shifted to his left side, but he keeps his head behind the ball until after impact. He has always talked about eliminating the left side and his fear of the hook, getting his weight out infront of him like that is probably what he has worked on to eliminate the hook.

[LowPost42]

Re: Never get tired of watching this

Hmmm. I can, without doubt, lift my right heel and still have most of my weight on the ball of my right foot.

And I don't know why I'd want to lift my right heel until it starts to come up of its own accord during impact to help the turn through.

That would be presupposing that Tiger's weight is moving to his toes during his downswing. It doesn't seem to look like that. I think it's more of your second paragraph - it's being pulled up by rotating hips, not pushed off of at the toe.