it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

[Neil18]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Ted,

.............. and has a lot more detail of positions in it.

Hi Brian. Long time no speak! I hope you're well. Same goes for all the GTO bods.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Having studied "positions this an positions that", I got bored with golf since November last year and had an extended lay off. No playing, no hitting balls, no reading golf books or forums or magazines etc etc.

Played on Dec 29th and shot +1

Played yesterday, shot +1 (was actually -2 after 14 but then a series of unfortunate events saw it slip!)

My handicap's 6.

During that time since early November I've bannished thoughts of positions from my swing and general golfing life.

I do have a swing thought before I hit:

"Let it be what it will"

I've never struck the ball better. I've never putted and chipped better (two chip ins yesterday and one more hit the flag). The notion of "what will be will be" free's my mind so much from the limitations that continuous practice and analysis brings. I'm not worried about where it goes. I take aim, swing in rhythm and in balance and smoothly, and it goes target-wards, or damn near it. And long enough to be keeping up with the youngsters at my club.

Now, you could say that "the 4 years I've spent studying the swing and practicing almost every day has paid off as now I can just switch off, swing, and the results are damn impressive".

But I haven't practiced hitting balls at all in these 3 months. These two rounds were the only two times I picked up a golf club out-doors during those 12 weeks. And my natural, most comfortable swing is not the one that I've been trying to learn for years. It is the swing inside me. I'm as comfy with it, even without practice, as I am sitting watching telly in my own lounge. And I don't care what it looks like. It works. I used to be a video freak about my golf swing. Not any more.

The rest of the time since November (on the occasions I was golf-orientated) I just watch Mr Snead swing the bat and tried to mimic the rhythm and grace of it. There's more education in watching Snead than I could learn in any book. Like Leslie Neilsen says:

"The one thing you can learn from golf books, is that you can't learn anything from golf books. But you have to read an awful lot of them to find that out"

For the club to be part of you, and to be able to allow it to flow round you with speed and power, all thoughts of positions and position-orientated practice should go. The only 2 things I'd look at are what grip allows your natural swing to perform best, and to look at the path of the ball to learn the angles of approach of the club to the ball and what swing-path makes the ball do what. And you don't need to learn any positions to make the club move a different way. You've just gotta have the balls to try something genuinely different. If habitual slicers genuinely tried something different, they wouldn't slice it. I have a mate at my club who is a classic example. "I'm trying X, I'm trying Y"................in two years his swing hasn't changed one iota. Neither's his ball flight. But he thinks he has tried all sorts.

When you find a natural, comfortable swing that makes the ball do what you want it to, remember the feeling. Remembering one holistic, whole-body feeling is far easier than having 7 checkpoints, 5 different anticipations and 3 different analyses in the circa 2 seconds it takes to swing a club. Yuck, yuck, and yuck.

And before anybody says anything, if you've seen a noob or chopper hacking at the ball on course or in a range and think that's their natural swing but they seriously need to change it, think again. The culture of golf grabs a player before he/she even picks a club up. There's nothing natural about hackers lunges at the ball. It's contrived and riddled with thoughts that they don't understand and that have no place in the thing of beauty that is a natural swing.

With this approach, I'm enjoying my golf immensely and playing well above my paper-based judgement of handicap.

As a side note, as far as I can I've tried to anticipate reactions (if any) to this post and to answer them within it. No doubt there will be rationalisations from people whose thoughts (and own games) defeat them. I accept that. No doubt some will think that the work I put in to get from 16 to 6 has allowed me to launch into circa par golf.

I say no. It's the regression to my natural golf that has allowed me to be in the game, and of the game. My natural golf progression got me from a handicap of 16 to 7. Since throwing myself whole-heartedly into my golf, analysing everthing and anything in order to improve, I went from 7 to 5 and back up to 6.

Now I'm back to natural golf and playing superbly.

What attitude, spawned the most marked improvement?

[bdbl]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

... since early November I've bannished thoughts of positions from my swing and general golfing life ... I've never struck the ball better. I've never putted and chipped better (two chip ins yesterday and one more hit the flag).... my natural, most comfortable swing is not the one that I've been trying to learn for years. It is the swing inside me.

No doubt some will think that the work I put in to get from 16 to 6 has allowed me to launch into circa par golf. I say no. It's the regression to my natural golf that has allowed me to be in the game, and of the game. My natural golf progression got me from a handicap of 16 to 7. Since throwing myself whole-heartedly into my golf, analysing everthing and anything in order to improve, I went from 7 to 5 and back up to 6.

Now I'm back to natural golf and playing superbly.

Hi Neil,

Great to hear you are doing so well and, as ever, an interesting and thought provoking post.

You'd be hard pushed to find a less technically orientated person than me, hence my comment to Brian that I'd hate to be taught to walk by a golf pro - "when your knee joint is at 17 degrees, your ankle should be cupped with your thigh at power position #3" - and I've pushed a few times on here a book that argues that most teaching gets in the way of you playing golf.

And yet, and yet. If, like me, you have developed a number of fundamental set up flaws then no matter how good or comfortable your natural swing is then your golf will never improve.

I'd suggest that those 4 years of study have laid down some sound foundations that are enabling you to reap the benefit of your new mindset - and "Let it be" is a pretty good swing thought.

From where I stand (at the bar of the 19th ) it strikes me that the problem is two-fold. Firstly most golf instruction is ludicrously over complicated yet paradoxically the attractive simplicity of say 3Skills is only effective [IMHO] with those who have the core fundamentals.

Many wasted hours and equally wasted cash have show me that the majority of teaching pros (with the honourable exception of those on here ) are actually hopeless at conveying simple ideas in a way their pupils can implement.

[bill reed]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

hi Bdbl
i have found that most teaching pros want to teach there swing to you not the swing that is best suited to you.
Bob Torrance has a saying, Teach the golfer how to swing and not teach the swing to the golfer.
with each golfer being diffrent how can you have say 10 people all together at once being taught how to swing when they all swing differently.
i bet you have all seen a teaching pro teaching 5 to 10 people at once.
if you find a teacher that will teach you how you best can swing then you will improve.
cheers
bill

[rotator]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Hi guys,

I have this take on this subject and the rejuvenation of Neil's game.

I have said that I have adopted a relatively fluid swing. I've also said that I have come to the realization that I needed a swing that was "not much thinking required automatic". I'm pretty much there.

I think what happened with Neil, happened with me for a long while when I did try to structure my swing so it moved from position to position. As did Neil, I studied the swing extensively and with this "knowledge" got too caught up in hitting the positions.

I still believe the knowledge of the fundamentals, as bdbl says, is necessary and becomes ingrained while you are learning and working on the game, through good and bad experiences. A good golfer can take weeks off without hitting the ball and come back and shoot par and under the first time. But when he gets fundamental breakdown problems, he has to go back to basic. They all do that.

However, to say a raw beginner without knowledge of the fundamentals should just let it go would be disasterous.

So, once you have the fundamentals, the idea is not to consciously think about hitting one position, and another, and so on, but to let the positions come in the way of the swing.

I recently saw a video of Fred Couples playing a practice round. He explained what he had to do in his swing (positions) to get the results he wanted. He said this and this (demonstrating) was his mistakes. Other than that, he said all he thinks about was firing his legs and swinging as fast as he could.

The one thing that this says once again is that the game is mostly played in the 6" wide fairway between your ears.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Hi Neil, I am good thanks and now (Early) retired so Golf has become a regular pass time now and I am loving it, the playing and social side has been great.

Good post Neil (as usual) and what an interesting subject for discussion. I can see Robin's point that if you have learned and grooved the basic fundamentals then it will be easier to let go.

I have found the 3 Skills book to be fascinating on this subject (sorry to keep on about it) Joe Hayden has really come up with something different, the more I consider it the more I am convinced that if you are taught what the fundamental important points of correct ball contact are and then left to swing the club such that you create these conditions you will form a swing based on what matters. I would like to see the progress of someone starting out using 3 skills who had never swung a club before.

Great to hear of your recent games, you must be really enjoying playing like that.

[rotator]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Hi Brian,

"I would like to see the progress of someone starting out using 3 skills who had never swung a club before."

That would be something.

I doubt though, if you were told to hit a certain way at the back of the ball, things like flipping, losing spine angle, casting, etc. (position/action related occurences) would not happen.

Ted

[bdbl]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

hi Bdbl

if you find a teacher that will teach you how you best can swing then you will improve.
cheers
bill

Hi Bill

Luckily I have now found a pro who is willing to work with what he sees in front of him, making incremental changes to MY swing in order to improve it.

I feel that I am now starting to play better, although due to short game problems [see previous posts] my scores aren't coming down yet.

[Neil18]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Hi Neil, I am good thanks and now (Early) retired so Golf has become a regular pass time now and I am loving it, the playing and social side has been great.

Good post Neil (as usual) and what an interesting subject for discussion. I can see Robin's point that if you have learned and grooved the basic fundamentals then it will be easier to let go.

I have found the 3 Skills book to be fascinating on this subject (sorry to keep on about it) Joe Hayden has really come up with something different, the more I consider it the more I am convinced that if you are taught what the fundamental important points of correct ball contact are and then left to swing the club such that you create these conditions you will form a swing based on what matters. I would like to see the progress of someone starting out using 3 skills who had never swung a club before.

Great to hear of your recent games, you must be really enjoying playing like that.

Hey Bri,

Only about 30 more years and I'll be joining you in retirement!

I must admit that some peoples responses on here have made me realise that there simply HAS to be a certain amount of the fundamentals that have stuck through diligent practice. And of course I realise that developing a reliable swing takes time.

I guess what I was trying to convey is that a lot of the **** spouted about the golf swing, and how to learn it, has absolutely no focus on building a fluid rhythmical swing. It ends up becoming a technical maze that has nothing to do with the physical act of swinging a club.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't study the kinetics and science behind it. But learning the theory and doing the practice are different animals. I have no idea how a car works, and I'm not remotely interested, but I know how to drive one. It really does seem like some people (and there are plenty on these boards!) worship this fella:

Interestingly, if one concentrates on the flow of the club round ones body, rather than trying to create any fast-moving (or correctly placed) body parts, a fair number of fundamentals fall into place.

They are, after all, fundamental to being able to swing the club quickly and efficiently.

The self fulfilling prophecy, in a golf swing.

Whatever next.

[BrianW]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

Hey Bri,

Only about 30 more years and I'll be joining you in retirement!

I must admit that some peoples responses on here have made me realise that there simply HAS to be a certain amount of the fundamentals that have stuck through diligent practice. And of course I realise that developing a reliable swing takes time.

I guess what I was trying to convey is that a lot of the **** spouted about the golf swing, and how to learn it, has absolutely no focus on building a fluid rhythmical swing. It ends up becoming a technical maze that has nothing to do with the physical act of swinging a club.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't study the kinetics and science behind it. But learning the theory and doing the practice are different animals. I have no idea how a car works, and I'm not remotely interested, but I know how to drive one. It really does seem like some people (and there are plenty on these boards!) worship this fella:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDFoBHzM1A

Interestingly, if one concentrates on the flow of the club round ones body, rather than trying to create any fast-moving (or correctly placed) body parts, a fair number of fundamentals fall into place.

They are, after all, fundamental to being able to swing the club quickly and efficiently.

The self fulfilling prophecy, in a golf swing.

Whatever next.

Neil,

I agree wholeheartedly. I think I have made my opinion clear over time of keeping it as simple as possible, I cringe when hearing some of the complex issues of body movements and terms cribbed from TGM used to help people.

[bill reed]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

hi Brian
i agree with you that often things are made to complected and are gone into to deeply but i also find if you have a fair swing and know the basics then reading books helps your understanding of the golf swing.
i think Homer book it a very detailed book and at times hard to read but it does do a good job of helping you visualize the parts of a swing and understand how the many parts of the body go together to make up the golf swing.
like you i don't think it would be of help to someone starting and keeping it simple is the way to go. starting with say a 1/2 swing and then working to a 3/4 swing and slowly working for the short irons to the long irons is the best way to start and keep the driver out the hands of someone starting.
cheers my friend
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: it's one thing to see it, it's another to do it!

I really like the material in this website. I love the dynamic snapshots.

It may generate discussions and observations, as to misconceptions and opinions as to what is right or wrong. If it's admiration to strive to emulate in part what Tiger and others are doing well; it's one thing to see them doing it, it's another thing to find the way to do it. It's an inspiration anyways.

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...chieve_it.html

Ted

Ted,

I have read that article a few times and it is very good, thanks for finding it.