Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

[Neil18]

[qassim]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Neil - more than happy to discuss as I've been a big of Sam Snead for a very long time.

A great swing.

[Neil18]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Hey there,

It just strikes me as odd that the most graceful and one of the most powerful and effortless swings, that has spawned the most PGA tour victories ever, is not used as a model more than the average chap idolises Hogans swing.

Mac O'Grady developed his swing off of Sneads. And he's a well-known teacher, indirectly leading to the "modern" method of S&T. But everyone seems to be magnetised towards Hogan instead, when we're talking of old-time swings. Before Snead, it was Bobby and Ernest Jones' actions that the world craved. I believe Snead used Bobby Jones' action to model his own.

Maybe it's the legend of Hogan coming from being a relatively poor player to one of the games greats that gives us hackers a notion that if we copy it, the same may happen!

But for sheer dynamic motion, power, grace and balance, Sneads action is the gem above all others, for me.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

And second to Snead was Stewart.

[rotator]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Snead is still the leader in wins on the PGA tour, as well as having that wonderful swing. He would have done better, if he could putt as well as others.

List of golfers with most PGA Tour wins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aspects of his swing which I always pay attention to, are the almost pause at the top and the soft transition, and the trademark sit down action of the legs on the downswing.

Ted

[bdbl]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Someone posted a link to Bobby Jones swing on here. It's truly a thing of rare beauty and I've got it bookmarked at home just to gaze upon with envy from time to time. I think modern orthodoxy would point out that Mr Jones doesn't create any tourque from resistance tween shoulder and hip turns and that his backswing is a bit long - but I guess it worked for him!

[BrianW]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Here's Bobby!

Sam and Bobby had such flowing swings, they rotated so smoothly around their spine angle.

[rotator]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Someone posted a link to Bobby Jones swing on here. It's truly a thing of rare beauty and I've got it bookmarked at home just to gaze upon with envy from time to time. I think modern orthodoxy would point out that Mr Jones doesn't create any tourque from resistance tween shoulder and hip turns and that his backswing is a bit long - but I guess it worked for him!

Hi guys and ladies,

There was a great series on the Golf Channel, actually they were/are still being re-run from time to time. There were two separate series of instructional films (about 12 1/2-hour shows), which B J did. Jones was reportedly paid over a $100,000 for the second series, which was an enormous amount in those days. Jones went through the whole thing, grip, set-up, swing, trouble shots, driver, irons, shot game etc. The technology of the production was pretty good also. A lot of shots showing his swing from all perspectives, slow motion, and where the balls finished.

I've seen the shows several times, and I am awestruck as to how smooth and efficient his swing was. His accomplishments speak for themselves.

Regarding Neil's observation about the lack of torque, that is absolutely true,
and I would say that type of swing is largely attributable to the hickory shafts. The modern swing with the torque and all (the father of which is credited to Byron Nelson) came with the advent of the steel shafts.

Here's an observation, which I often wondered about. When I see Jones and his swing, I see that he had very thick, sturdy legs and he was very light and coordinated in how he used them. I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that many of the great golfers have strong legs??

Ted

Ted

[dagosa]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Only Bobby Jones will have Bobby Jone's swing...Sam Snead will have Sam's..and so on. I feel many golfers make too much studying golfing great's swing. Only they have the hand eye co ordination to place the club face on the ball with the full swings they use that are specific to them.
We are all stuck with the swing that allows us as individuals to obtain the best results we can. A few common approaches because we humanoids....but there the similarity ends. Trying to model yourself after greats without a thorough knowledge of your own limitations, is a fast tract to a lot of frustration. This, followed by a trip to an instructor and we are on a never ending circle that feeds on hero worship of pro golfers and their swings whose abilities put them out of our reach.
But the golfing industry feeds on these hero worships of swing and equipment.
Fortunately for some, a golfer may run across the instructor that fully explains the object of "our" game, and not Tiger Wood's. Then tasks us to be the best we can be; a content player, playing within his own limitations, and maximizing his love of the game. Doing it his own way with his own swing and not Bobby's, Sam's, Ben's or Tiger.

[bdbl]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Only Bobby Jones will have Bobby Jone's swing...Sam Snead will have Sam's..and so on. I feel many golfers make too much studying golfing great's swing. Only they have the hand eye co ordination to place the club face on the ball with the full swings they use that are specific to them.
We are all stuck with the swing that allows us as individuals to obtain the best results we can. A few common approaches because we humanoids....but there the similarity ends. Trying to model yourself after greats without a thorough knowledge of your own limitations, is a fast tract to a lot of frustration. This, followed by a trip to an instructor and we are on a never ending circle that feeds on hero worship of pro golfers and their swings whose abilities put them out of our reach.
But the golfing industry feeds on these hero worships of swing and equipment.
Fortunately for some, a golfer may run across the instructor that fully explains the object of "our" game, and not Tiger Wood's. Then tasks us to be the best we can be; a content player, playing within his own limitations, and maximizing his love of the game. Doing it his own way with his own swing and not Bobby's, Sam's, Ben's or Tiger.

To a large degree I agree with you.

I think I've been a small minority of 1 on here for ages suggesting that for the vast majority* position by position video analysis comparing your swing with that of someone who practices 8 hours a day every day only really benefits the bank balance of the pro using the equipment. A bit like the snake oil salesmen selling their mental approach books, but that’s a different thread.

* I'd say that, whilst there will be some exceptions, most people will see no improvement and some, sadly, will regress once they start down the road of side by side swing comparisons with all those little lines showing how their plane is wrong.

HOWEVER that’s not to say that there is nothing to learn, nothing to gain by looking at Bobby’s, or Sam’s, or Ben’s or Tiger’s [but perhaps not all at once ] and trying to emulate the feel, the totality, the execution of that swing.

[BrianW]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

These guys had beautiful and effective golf swings, why not model your own to theirs as best you can?

So, what is a better way than learning an effective and efficient way to deliver the club to the ball so that it makes good contact and sends it towards the target? Should you turn up at a course with your new clubs and proceed to wack the ball around the course as your instinct sees fit, thus creating your own personal swing system. I think not.

When I have been coached using video analysis I have found it very good as I am able to see clearly what I am doing and what I should do to correct the fault, for me this is so much better than trying to work through it at the range by trial and error.

If you want to be good at something then study the best. You may not have the ability to become as good as them but you will be working with sound principals.

[bdbl]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

These guys had beautiful and effective golf swings, why not model your own to theirs as best you can?

If you want to be good at something then study the best. You may not have the ability to become as good as them but you will be working with sound principals.

I think we are pretty much in agreement there Brian; which allows us to disagree on the other bits in a civilised way

When I have been coached using video analysis I have found it very good as I am able to see clearly what I am doing and what I should do to correct the fault, for me this is so much better than trying to work through it at the range by trial and error.

Neat debating trick there me old mucker; but "trial and error" is not the polar opposite of video analysis is it? In any case I was careful to say that some will benefit from video analysis, especially, as with you, those better golfers with a sound grasp of fundamentals who are studying their own swings.

My objection to the "lets compare your swing frame by frame with Tigers" school of thought, and I'll take some persuading from this position, is, that, like 99% of the golf industry, it is is a ploy by lazy teachers to part the gullible and desperate to improve from their money.

Anyone with a handicap above (oh let's pluck a figure out of the air ) 14 would better off with a decent pro working, bit by bit, with what is in front of them on the range and consigning the fancy analysis software to the bin.

[Neil18]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

I must admit I've seen a few teachers in my time and nobody has ever approached it like "We're going to copy X, Y or Z".

But if you were taken to a far off country and told to find your way to a town 100 miles away without a map, you'd do pretty well to get even close to anywhere useful.

Everybody has their own way of doing it. Not by choice, necessarily, but by conceding that they can't perform a certain part of a swing that someone else can (who's good at it) and so finding their own way of doing it.

But there are most definately certain things that the best ball strikers have that players should be striving to attain if they wish, and need, to get better.

For me, Sneads action is the only action I've ever seen that is absolute testament that there is definately a way of moving that doesn't see any part of the body working against any other part of the body, or club.

Every piece of it moves at the right time in the right way. That's not to say that his is the "right way" but the leg bone is definately connected to the hip bone, if you see what I mean.

Most swings (both professional and amateur alike) are nowhere near this fluid, rhythmic and holistic.

[bdbl]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

I must admit I've seen a few teachers in my time and nobody has ever approached it like "We're going to copy X, Y or Z".

Fair enough but why then does V1 Pro specifically offer that feature to teaching pros so that they can maximise the value of their investment?

The cynic in me loves this quote from Harmon "V1 Pro analysis online keeps them motivated to ... invest in more lessons." - You don't say.

Come to that how many times have you seen this sort of thing on GTO?

Yup, copying Baddeley, even if I understood what I was seeing, is really going to help an unfit 53 year old ,whose stomach proves he likes real ale, and who plays once a week at best (and not all if its cold) to swing like a pro

Yet I see people just like me poring over the coaches laptop and nodding wisely before handing over that week,s money.

[Neil18]

Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

Blimey. Such a post steeped in such cynicism I have never seen!

The tool of V1 is useful. But only to "open ones eyes" as to what one is trying to achieve. Not to ensure that next time the student turns up, he's in the same shorts and t-shirt, sporting a new hair cut in an effort to do it like "Golfers In Their Eyes".

It's down to the pupil if he takes it to the cloning extreme.