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Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

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  • #31
    Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

    hi Dagosa
    i agree with what you say and would add that Seve was not the best swinger of a club but he sure could work the head of his club to do things out of all sorts of strange lies. one of the worlds best scrambles and exciting players to watch.
    cheers
    Bill

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

      Originally posted by dagosa View Post
      The greatest swings that we find ourselves imitating are found on the end of a driver/fairwaywood/long iron on a flat lie. That Hogan or Snead seem to posses a swing that "looks" more worthy of imitation while in the tee box belies the fact that....the best players are those that have the most varied successful swings, not the best looking. No one can keep up with the player who can execute a knock down in a heavy wind....a long fairway trap or long bunker shot etc.. None of these swings are held to scrutiny as the "ideal" swing, yet each may be just as valuable to complete a successful round. I would argue that this false choice of using Sam's or someone elses swing to emulate leads to frustration for the average golfer.
      Successful golf lies in the proper utilization of the tools of golf under, usually, a different circumstance with each shot; the drive being just one of them. Criticizing Tiger's driving swing and at the same time acknowledging him as the best player in the last 20 years only emphasizes that point.
      I repeat...the best players of any generation, may or may not have great swings.....they just grind out results with a variety of swings that are appropriate to the task at hand better than their competitors.
      Working from the inside out...(the hitting area) may or may not result in a pretty swing. It will always result in the best outcome. That's where players should focus...not on swings.
      That was the philosophy of Ted Williams as a hitting coach. He NEVER coached his swing. He coached situation and preparation. The swing he said, would take take of itself.
      You cannot start with a swing and expect success. Ted's great swing come about over years of work from the hitting area outward until contact is eventually mated with power.
      Sam Snead I would argue, did the same thing. There are no short cuts through imitation.
      Good post.

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      • #33
        Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

        Originally posted by dagosa View Post
        The greatest swings that we find ourselves imitating are found on the end of a driver/fairwaywood/long iron on a flat lie. That Hogan or Snead seem to posses a swing that "looks" more worthy of imitation while in the tee box belies the fact that....the best players are those that have the most varied successful swings, not the best looking. No one can keep up with the player who can execute a knock down in a heavy wind....a long fairway trap or long bunker shot etc.. None of these swings are held to scrutiny as the "ideal" swing, yet each may be just as valuable to complete a successful round. I would argue that this false choice of using Sam's or someone elses swing to emulate leads to frustration for the average golfer.
        Successful golf lies in the proper utilization of the tools of golf under, usually, a different circumstance with each shot; the drive being just one of them. Criticizing Tiger's driving swing and at the same time acknowledging him as the best player in the last 20 years only emphasizes that point.
        I repeat...the best players of any generation, may or may not have great swings.....they just grind out results with a variety of swings that are appropriate to the task at hand better than their competitors.
        Working from the inside out...(the hitting area) may or may not result in a pretty swing. It will always result in the best outcome. That's where players should focus...not on swings.
        That was the philosophy of Ted Williams as a hitting coach. He NEVER coached his swing. He coached situation and preparation. The swing he said, would take take of itself.
        You cannot start with a swing and expect success. Ted's great swing come about over years of work from the hitting area outward until contact is eventually mated with power.
        Sam Snead I would argue, did the same thing. There are no short cuts through imitation.

        Does this then bring us back to 3 skills ?

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        • #34
          Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

          Originally posted by qassim View Post
          Does this then bring us back to 3 skills ?
          Yes, guess it does

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

            Sam still holds the record for the most PGA wins @ 82

            A brief history:
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/1656318.stm

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

              Originally posted by rotator View Post
              A further observation regarding Sam Snead.

              He was a blessed physical speciman. He was a natural athlete. I took the time to quickly check and this is but only one result.

              http://www.brownbears.com/sports/m-f...ead_sam00.html
              So not the same Snead! It was Samuel Jackson Snead, and he wasn't born in 1981!

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                Originally posted by dagosa View Post
                The greatest swings that we find ourselves imitating are found on the end of a driver/fairwaywood/long iron on a flat lie. That Hogan or Snead seem to posses a swing that "looks" more worthy of imitation while in the tee box belies the fact that....the best players are those that have the most varied successful swings, not the best looking. No one can keep up with the player who can execute a knock down in a heavy wind....a long fairway trap or long bunker shot etc.. None of these swings are held to scrutiny as the "ideal" swing, yet each may be just as valuable to complete a successful round. I would argue that this false choice of using Sam's or someone elses swing to emulate leads to frustration for the average golfer.
                Successful golf lies in the proper utilization of the tools of golf under, usually, a different circumstance with each shot; the drive being just one of them. Criticizing Tiger's driving swing and at the same time acknowledging him as the best player in the last 20 years only emphasizes that point.
                I repeat...the best players of any generation, may or may not have great swings.....they just grind out results with a variety of swings that are appropriate to the task at hand better than their competitors.
                Working from the inside out...(the hitting area) may or may not result in a pretty swing. It will always result in the best outcome. That's where players should focus...not on swings.
                That was the philosophy of Ted Williams as a hitting coach. He NEVER coached his swing. He coached situation and preparation. The swing he said, would take take of itself.
                You cannot start with a swing and expect success. Ted's great swing come about over years of work from the hitting area outward until contact is eventually mated with power.
                Sam Snead I would argue, did the same thing. There are no short cuts through imitation.
                I see where you're coming from, and I'll reiterate that copying detail by detail and position by position isn't the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

                It's Sam's rhythm and grace that many are missing as a massive key to swinging a golf club efficiently and effectively.

                It's not just Sam who had it. His technique wasn't perfect and others are similar. Nicklaus, whilst full of effort in his younger years, developed wonderful grace and rhythm as he got older. And Trevino had beautiful timing and never looked in too much of a hurry.

                Sam, Jack and Lee wouldn't be called technically perfect, but IMO, Sam was technicaly VERY sound, but his rhythm, fluidity, balance and distinct lack of strain are well worth noting for anyone looking for effortless power.

                It just so happens that there are certain body movements and positions that come with that grace. But looking at the whole movement holistically rather than piece by piece yields much better results.

                People marvel at Tigers swing, and yes positionally it's very good. There are many times, however, when his alpha maleness grabs hold and the effort expended is not worth the results obtained. Take his often wayward driving, for example. So often he looks like he's trying to smash the ball into a thousand pieces. But then when he plays his best long game, he looks comfortable, relaxed and in control of everything.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                  From the link that Brian posted I think the following comments by Sam about his own swing sum up the whole debate;

                  "When I swing at a golf ball right, my mind is blank and my body is loose as a goose."

                  ....when asked to share the secret of his success, all Snead could explain was that he "tried to feel oily".

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                    Originally posted by qassim View Post
                    From the link that Brian posted I think the following comments by Sam about his own swing sum up the whole debate;

                    "When I swing at a golf ball right, my mind is blank and my body is loose as a goose."

                    ....when asked to share the secret of his success, all Snead could explain was that he "tried to feel oily".
                    That's the basis for the whole discussion. Sam has no secret to share relative to his swing, because it is his and his alone. With superb hand eye co ordination, natural abilities that few of us could even hope to have, his movements, like Ted Williams, are unique to him at any point in time. It is and never will be ours. Admiration and emulation should not be confused with imitation. Imitated the work ethic, the thought process in arriving at any one of a slew of correct decisions one has to make while playing. But imitation of another's body movement for more than general reference and acknowledge that they are a mortal primate like the rest of us....is a fast track to frustration.
                    We each have our own great golf swings unique to us, locked up inside. Our's is to find it like the gifted have found their's.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                      Hi dagosa,

                      I agree with you.

                      I would think ol' Sam had a fairly natural swing, when he first picked up a hazel branch at his folk's homestead and hit at walnuts on the ground.

                      I've seen many pros interviewed about what they do in their swings. It's amazing that many do not know. There are many actual examples, but one comes to mind. Seve had a natural unconventional swing, which he developed as a kid, literally as in my para above re Snead. When he ran into problems, he could not fix it. He went to many instructors, not the least of which was Butch Harmon, and they could not fix it. Tiger, on the other hand is a student of the swing, and he makes adjustments all the time. You could see this after a stray shot, and he would go into a post-mortem position check.

                      Neil might disagree, and I don't want to argue the point, because if he feels strongly about it that's fine with me. I believe a mortal like me would be better off (nay, have no real choice), but to plug away, and eventually go through the learning of what positions to have and which to avoid, what makes a good swing and what makes a bad. Unfortunately, unless you are born with a gift, or you are taught well from the beginning, you have a tendency to have misconceptions, build on those, and have tendencies to make bad moves and get into bad positions. For instance, I believe it is a natural tendency for strapping athletes to want to use their big upper body muscles as the first move to power the ball, and it does not seem natural to start the swing from the lower body. It seems natural to throw your hands from the top in order to pound the ball. I have taken exception in the past to the advice given to beginners to just start slashing away.

                      I'm satisfied I went through the process. Now, I would not make a over the top move, because there is a remembrance hard learned in the back of my mind, that says hey you've made that dumb move for many years and you've seen it's not good, so you better do this instead. I know what the bad moves and positions are, and now instinctively I mainly avoid them, while swinging as naturally as possible. I do have a essentially thought-free natural swing now.

                      Ted

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                        Knowledge is power. I want to know MORE about the golf swing rather than less. Studying the commonalities of effective swings like Snead’s and others is a great way to reinforce and understand of the imperatives of the swing and to then apply them. The risk of destructive "imitation" is highly exaggerated.

                        The natural inclination of an adult beginner is almost always wrong, as rotator describes. Mostly the result of being too goal oriented......hitting the ball...hard.....in the right direction....without missing ......without much practice. Later, additional "goals" are added.......half understood fundamentals....hit down, hit inside out, open and close the clubface, etc. Slightly more sophisticated goals, but same lack of understanding, more incorrect manipulations to achieve the new "goals". But I digress.....

                        Watching video and/or stop action of good swings is great instruction. Many of the great players, before the television age, admit to watching and being influenced by good players they witnessed in person.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Why is this swing not discussed more? Discuss.

                          Hi kbp,

                          We have similar views.

                          Regarding your comment about observing at a young age, I never had that opportunity, as my family was not well off and golf was not in the picture. I was an inner city kid.

                          But I remember an interview with Tiger's father about 3 years ago. He had Tiger sitting with him, and they were introspective. The father thoughtfully said something like this: Well, you were still very young and not had picked up club, but you were always watching me practicing. So it seems that beknownst to me, you were picking up things and learning how to swing and do all the things, so when you did pick up the club, you already knew what to do.

                          I believe Tiger picked up a club when he was short of 3 years old. His father was an avid golfer, and spent a lot of time practicing and working on the game, because as Tiger says he was an ex-Green Beret and was a perfectionist.

                          Ted

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