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Rotation.........
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Re: Rotation.........
2:26 of the video. That is the secret to golf. The mythical circle within the circle and that is all right hand. That is why hogan wanted 3 right hands, to propel the circle within the circle.
Though I think the intent of this post is the hips, that propel the circle itself. And that is very similar to golf as well, just on a differnt angle.
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GTO Moderator
- Jul 2004
- 5311
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True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
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I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.
For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.
Re: Rotation.........
Watch the Nationwide Tour - this is the bulk of the swing you see - body powered "one plane" rotational. Even the youngest talent in Little League baseball - the kids that pound it, swing like Mark McGwire (another rotational hitter). All those LD guys? Rotational...
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Re: Rotation.........
Good clip Ian.
It makes a lot of sense and you can definitely see where the power comes from - same principles apply to golf.
However, I think that in golf asking/teaching new/high handicap golfers to lead with hips often causes more problems than it solves. It generally leads to making things more complicated for them in understanding and executing a co-ordinated swing.
For more competent golfers this is definitely the way forward.
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Re: Rotation.........
We have been here quite a few times with the question "What powers the golf swing ?" and debates on whether it's the legs, hips, shoulders, arms, wrists or all of it.
Here is my opinion for what it may be worth: The motion of the golf swing differs slightly from the actions used in Baseball, tennis, Cricket etc as you are striking a stationary ball on the ground, the other sports are contacting a ball moving towards you and in the air. Due to the ball being stationary and on the ground the swing is less circular and has to move around the body while rising and falling.
To suggest that a single body part powers or is responsible for the speed of the golfclub is incorrect, IMO the swing is powered by a number of linked body movements that have their part to play. Some parts move more to support and stabilise, some to generate core inertia and some to control and amplify rotation. It is a concerted and synchronised action.
Nobody can make a reasonable golf swing without rotating the hips, legs, shoulders, torso, arms or wrists. The body is naturally programmed to do this, otherwise mankind would not have been able to throw a spear, rock or swing a stick and would have perished through natural selection.
I respectfully suggest that to teach someone how to strike a golf ball with a club by focusing mainly on hip rotation to generate speed will not work and only confuse the student.Last edited by BrianW; 04-24-2009, 05:02 PM.
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Re: Rotation.........
As I've said (and debated) many times before, I believe the hips and lower body are an essential part of the swing, but do not power the swing as such.
A casual golfer could play well and achieve satisfactory distances, while limiting the speed and force of the hips. As gassim and Brian says, the over-firing of the hips with the intent to crush the ball could be, and often is, a counterproductive thing for most casual golfers, who don't have the skill, timing, practice time, strength and flexibility to do it properly.
People look at the big hitters and point out that they fire their hips, and it seems the faster the more distance they achieve. Examples pointed out are Tiger and Ochoa as the extremes, but all the top golfers do that to a lesser degree. Corey Pavin hardly fires his hips, but he also has quite a slow torso, arm and club speed, so he does not need the hips to fire fast to support the upper body actions.
Individuals like Tiger and Ochoa clearly do fire their hips fast, but they also rotate their torsos and shoulders, and swing their arms and clubs also very fast. I say that the hips have to fire fast for these players, so the hips and lower body will be in position to support the following actions of the torso, shoulders and arms. This applies also to the lateral shift and the so called clearing (rotation open of the hips) to provide space for the arms to whip through. Otherwise, their fast upper body parts would not have the requisite solid foundation and clearances for their motion. When you look at videos of Sam Snead, you see his big lateral lower body shift, but there's the "sitdown" position, which breaks up the force of the forward thrust, and allows for the rotation and opening of the hips, so the arms have clearance to swing through.
I don't think the fast firing of the hips in itself provides the direct energy to power the ball. It's the other rotational and levers and hinges that apply the clubhead to the ball. Otherwise, you might as well say put the ball on a teeball tee and hit it with a hip bump and see what energy is imparted to the ball.
I play regularly with Walt, who has no left leg (from mid thigh), and has a strap on wood prosthetic. He has to drag his foot into the stance which is very tenuous, because it's got to be narrow, and which will support balance through the whole swing action. He can't throw his hips, otherwise he'd lose balance. It's basically an upper body, arms and wrist swing, but at one point he used to hit the ball 220 yards on his good ones. He says it's 250, but like everyone else he overestimates. He's 72 now, so a good one now is around 200.
I suppose stack and tilt is a good example as well. although I'm not sure if the hips stay out of it entirely. I believe it's a stand up motion of the hips.
I have not as yet looked at the video, but that will be now.
Ted
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Re: Rotation.........
When done correctly looks like the fellow on the left...
Done the other way produces alot of speed also...Attached Files
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Re: Rotation.........
Hi all,
I have a question concerning this subject. I think about this sometimes.
I've seen references in instructions and articles about golf swings, that there is a separation point, from which the lower body actions "stop" in a manner, and the torso, shoulders, then arms carry on. I know there is no stop as such, but it seems to me it's not a case of the force of one action adding fully to the next and to the next.
Typically, this is shown if you look at the shots, which ben hogan posted. You see the hips have fired and rotated already, but the swing of the torso, shoulders and arms is made against a posted left leg (this is the recommended action in golf instruction). So, it seems there was a break in the forward momentum and "force", which the firing and rotating hips initially provided. It also seems to me there is a downward pressure of the legs against the ground in the swing, as the golfer rotates and swings his upper body parts. This also diffuses the forward "force" of the firing hips. This is seen in what Tiger used to do with his snapping and straightening of the left leg. Many top golfers still do this to attain more power. Laura Davies literally launches her body off the ground, with the downward pressure. Sam Snead did his sitdown move, which again seems likely to diffuse the forward "force" of the lateral and rotating hips.
Perhaps, this is because the golf swing is a vertically inclined swing, versus the baseball swing, and the downward pressure against the ground (which in fact causes an upward resistance of the body) is necessary as a counter force for the downward rotation and swinging of the upper body and the club.
Ted
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Re: Rotation.........
Interesting, ben hogan,
The second video seems to show that after the legs and hips have shifted forward and the weight was planted on the front leg, the main power applied to the ball was the upper body propelling the arms and bat.
Here's another baseball swing, which shows the massive power delivered, while falling backward.
When I think about it, it seems that there are two ways a baseball swing could result in a powerful hit. One is mainly through muscle power, like Ruth, Gehrig, Bonds?, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, etc. The other is mainly through a efficient, well-timed swing, which produces speed, like Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, etc.
I don't really know if it's quite the same in golf, i.e. that you can count on mainly muscle power. Also, as I said in the earlier post, perhaps the difference is that golf has the vertical component, and there is that downward pressure element, whereas baseball is forward push and momentum orientated.
Ted
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Re: Rotation.........
Here's a video of David Tom's swing, with commentary by Peter Kostis. He talks about the power leak, caused according to him by the large hip slide (presumably without a corresponding or enough of a hip turn). But is the fallback of the spine angle due to the hip slide alone?
You can see the "up and over" motion of the head though, whereas others stay down and through on a level path a lot longer. It's quite dramatic. BTW, he plays a 8.5 degree driver.
Any thoughts on this?
Ted
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Re: Rotation.........
Ruth and Hogan shared some common elements in thier swings,
notably their dominate sides were dragged (pulled) thru impact...
They both shallowed the club...bat...
Lead side... pivotal point...
Trailing hip didn't spin outward...blocking the dominate arm...elbow...
Centripetal and centrifugal forces worked in concert...
The upward motion is a result of the hips stalling or spinning outward...
having to making room for the arms...
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