Rotation.........

[ben hogan]

Re: Rotation.........

[BrianW]

Re: Rotation.........

Ruth and Hogan shared some common elements in thier swings,

notably their dominate sides were dragged (pulled) thru impact...

They both shallowed the club...bat...

Lead side... pivotal point...

Trailing hip didn't spin outward...blocking the dominate arm...elbow...

Centripetal and centrifugal forces worked in concert...

The upward motion is a result of the hips stalling or spinning outward...

having to making room for the arms...

I don't understand how room has to be made for the arms? The arms do not swing on a path that create a collision with the hips. Please explain your thinking here.

[Neil18]

Re: Rotation.........

And Hogan was left handed wasn't he?

[BrianW]

Re: Rotation.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_FE0...eature=related

If you consider these videos it shows clearly that the hip rotation is a precursor that allows an uninhibited and powerful swing of the torso, shoulders and arms. If the hips were kept back there would be an imbalance that would impend the transfer of weight and momentum.

[ben hogan]

Re: Rotation.........

I'll use this video to try an explain...

As Moe begins the downswing take notice of the slant of the right hip

as it increases ... stop the video at 1:06...the right arm and elbow are

now in front of the hip...By this time many have fired the hips leaving

the arms behind or colliding with the right hip... One has to aggressively

rotate or throw the club to get back to the ball...

At 1:14 is where the similarities end between Hogan and Moe...

Hogan didn't stop rotation thus the difference in the two photos...

[BrianW]

Re: Rotation.........

I'll use this video to try an explain...

As Moe begins the downswing take notice of the slant of the right hip

as it increases ... stop the video at 1:06...the right arm and elbow are

now in front of the hip...By this time many have fired the hips leaving

the arms behind or colliding with the right hip... One has to aggressively

rotate or throw the club to get back to the ball...

At 1:14 is where the similarities end between Hogan and Moe...

Hogan didn't stop rotation thus the difference in the two photos...

Moe ensured he faced the ball at impact and used very little hip rotation until the follow through, he also kept his right foot on the ground at impact. In the early downswing he moves his left knee over his left foot to transfer weight and momentum.

His swing is a true one plane type and power is generated by the rotational force of his shoulders and arms with his lower body planted to create stability, he also maintains lag effectively in the downswing.

[rotator]

Re: Rotation.........

Brian, you are right about Moe's swing having little rotation of the hips. You also explained the rest of his swing so well.

He was all about a forward motion to the target. You can see this in this video as well as others, with a big lateral shift of his legs and hips towards the target, which along with holding the lag far down the line allowed him to be unparalleled in keeping the head in the hitting path for a longest time (they say 18 - 24 inches). He would demonstrate this by saying he felt that he wanted his lagged hands to go well down the line and past his front thigh. Of course this did not happen, but that's what he wanted it to feel like.

I believe that explains his stand up followthrough with his arms extending down the target line and taking the club pointing up, and not around.

Notice also, his "sitdown" motion, which Snead also amongst others used to provide a ground connection and to gather his upper rotary action.

He was probably in his mid sixties when this video was taken and he still looks great.

I had good success with the swing when i used it, but I needed something that required a lot less physical in the long run. People may not realize it, but Moe was a tremendously strong and durable guy and the swing does require strength.

I know you, Brian, were a strong student and devotee of his swing for a while also.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: Rotation.........

I know you, Brian, were a strong student and devotee of his swing for a while also.

Hi Ted,

Yes, I did study his swing (I think I have had a try of most now) I like to have a go at different golf swings as a matter of interest.

I found Moe such an interesting person and he was one of the few people who owned their own swing. Recons he has used the same tee for two years and not hit a ball out of bounds in 11 years of tournament playing

[ben hogan]

Re: Rotation.........

........

[ben hogan]

Re: Rotation.........

Here's rotation and one way to shallow the club...

[kbp]

Re: Rotation.........

The golf swing is powered by core forces. Relatively slow but very powerful movements. The linkage/lever system of the arms and club are the transmission device to change this very large but very slow force into a relatively weaker force but with tremendous speed at the ball. Both the engine and the transmission are obviously required.

Hips (or any body parts, for that matter) do NOT have to move quickly nor through a large range of motion to apply a large force. They CAN but they don't HAVE to. The golf swing’s rotation is leveraged against the ground. Even if you hit by only moving the shoulders, the ground still provides the resistance (or reaction to the action). Therefore, all the core parts between the shoulders and the ground are transmitting the force through a chain between the ground and the shoulders. Whether the hips move or not is irrelevant to the force they apply. The stationary back knee, the coiling resistance for some of us, require force. Likewise, even a very small and subtle movement of the hips in the downswing can provide a large rotational force.

As to the philosophy of hip power being the destroyer of swings, I would say improper hip movement, as with any improper movement, can destroy a swing. Why would anyone want to learn improper shoulder, arm, or wrist movement any more or less than improper hip movement? What people need to know is that the core powers the swing. It does not have to CONTROL the swing. It CAN but it doesn't HAVE to. You can be "hands"/arms" controlled or "pivot" control. But what you CANNOT be is "hands/arms" POWERED, at least not if you want to be any good, IMO.

[BrianW]

Re: Rotation.........

The golf swing is powered by core forces. Relatively slow but very powerful movements. The linkage/lever system of the arms and club are the transmission device to change this very large but very slow force into a relatively weaker force but with tremendous speed at the ball. Both the engine and the transmission are obviously required.

Hips (or any body parts, for that matter) do NOT have to move quickly nor through a large range of motion to apply a large force. They CAN but they don't HAVE to. The golf swing’s rotation is leveraged against the ground. Even if you hit by only moving the shoulders, the ground still provides the resistance (or reaction to the action). Therefore, all the core parts between the shoulders and the ground are transmitting the force through a chain between the ground and the shoulders. Whether the hips move or not is irrelevant to the force they apply. The stationary back knee, the coiling resistance for some of us, require force. Likewise, even a very small and subtle movement of the hips in the downswing can provide a large rotational force.

As to the philosophy of hip power being the destroyer of swings, I would say improper hip movement, as with any improper movement, can destroy a swing. Why would anyone want to learn improper shoulder, arm, or wrist movement any more or less than improper hip movement? What people need to know is that the core powers the swing. It does not have to CONTROL the swing. It CAN but it doesn't HAVE to. You can be "hands"/arms" controlled or "pivot" control. But what you CANNOT be is "hands/arms" POWERED, at least not if you want to be any good, IMO.

A good post KBP.

I dont believe anyone here has suggested that the golf swing is powered by the hands and arms alone. The discussion has been based around hip rotation in the way some baseball players swing with a pronounced lead of the hips.

I agree with you that the core (Hips, Torso and Shoulders) create the central rotational force that is amplified in the arms, wrists and clubshaft. I just don't like to emphasise a large hip rotation to initialise the downswing, I know some tour pros do this but I think it will create stability problems with most golfers. I do use a small bump of the hips to start the downswing so that weight is transferred to the lead leg, this bump also starts the rotation of the hips without any conscious effort.

I do agree with your statement "But what you CANNOT be is "hands/arms" POWERED, at least not if you want to be any good" You can be very good at ball striking by using the torso and shoulders to create rotation though and the above video of Moe Norman shows someone who excelled at it.

Once again, thanks for your your articulate post.