Wrists

[tj3]

Could someone please help clarify for me these two terms. I think I understand cupped. I have been told and read to vision what your wrist is like if you were holding a tray of food over your head. I guess this happens as your wrists cock at top of your backswing. Is your right wrist cupped (right handed golfer)and left wrist bowed? If that is correct then intutively bowed is opposite. Not sure. I am trying to envison when you would ever had a bowed wrist, right or left. As your left wrist goes thru ball isn't also cupped at that point. Any clarification or direction to site where I could read/learn more with simple explanation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[rotator]

Re: Wrists

Could someone please help clarify for me these two terms. I think I understand cupped. I have been told and read to vision what your wrist is like if you were holding a tray of food over your head. I guess this happens as your wrists cock at top of your backswing. Is your right wrist cupped (right handed golfer)and left wrist bowed? If that is correct then intutively bowed is opposite. Not sure. I am trying to envison when you would ever had a bowed wrist, right or left. As your left wrist goes thru ball isn't also cupped at that point. Any clarification or direction to site where I could read/learn more with simple explanation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Hi tj,

At the top of the backswing, the following terms are normally used to describe the conventional wrist positions for a right hand golfer. The left wrist would ideally be flat (the flat of the top of the hand, matching with the flat of the top of the wrist, matching with the flat of the top of the forearm). If the arms are on plane, the foregoing would be called a square position, which will reflect in a square clubface position. The top of the wrist will be flat, but the wrist would be also be cocked (the thumb upcocked in a hitchhiking position).

If the left wrist is not flat, it could be bowed or cupped, but given the same on plane arm position, those wrist positions would change the clubface to closed and open, respectively. To give you a picture, Fred Couples' left wrist at the top is cupped, whereas Lee Trevino's is bowed.

The right wrist position is normally described as bent (as in bent back on itself).

Here's a website, which shows pictures of the positions described above.

http://www.golfersworld.co.za/gw/gw-tips.asp


At impact, the left wrist is ideally recommended to be flat or bowed, and the right wrist to still retain some of the bent position. Here's a website showing that position.

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...chieve_it.html

I hope this is what you're looking for.

Ted

[Jeff Mann]

Re: Wrists

See this glossary of wrist movements.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htm

Jeff.

[bdbl]

Re: Wrists

Ted, a good and comprehensive explanation answering the question we were asked.

However I'm just about to be very cheeky and edit it just to get on a Sunday morning hobby horse and remind the OP not to get too hung up about technical and positional analysis.

At the top of the backswing, .... the left wrist would ideally be flat ...if the left wrist is not flat, it could be bowed or cupped,.. Fred Couples' left wrist at the top is cupped, whereas Lee Trevino's is bowed.

If Fred and Lee could carve out a career with their left wrist cupped or bowed then there may be hope for the rest of us.

IMO there are as many ways to swing a club as there are to skin a cat; there is no one right way, only the way that works for you and enables you to hit the ball consistently whether that be left to right, right to left, big draw, slight fade.

Look at Monty, 8 times Order of merit winner, with what if he was Joe in your Sunday morning fourball you'd call a slice.

Point is Fred, Lee and Monty had a repeating swing that they could play with and that was more important than whether their wrist was flat, cupped or bowed.

Sure take lessons from a decent pro to improve your swing but unless you are actually a waiter dump the one who talks about trays of food for one that uses analogies that are vaguely relevant.

[tj3]

Re: Wrists

Thank you to all for the quick equally important very informative responses!!!

[kbp]

Re: Wrists

Nicely done, as usual, Ted.

A bit more. Fred plays a cupped left wrist because he has a strong grip. To get his club "square" at the top (parallel to the forearm, club face laying on plane) he has to have a cup at the top, similar to the cup at address. Most players with a 2 or 3 knuckle grip will either have some cup in the left wrist with a "square" club face at the top OR a flat left wrist and a slightly "closed" clubface at the top. A weaker grip allows for a flat left wrist AND a square face, but restricts wrist movement.

It should be obvious at address if the leading edge of the clubface is directly facing the target and the back of the left hand is somewhat facing the sky they are not facing the same direction. This relationship doesn’t change during the swing

[bill reed]

Re: Wrists

Nicely done, as usual, Ted.

A bit more. Fred plays a cupped left wrist because he has a strong grip. To get his club "square" at the top (parallel to the forearm, club face laying on plane) he has to have a cup at the top, similar to the cup at address. Most players with a 2 or 3 knuckle grip will either have some cup in the left wrist with a "square" club face at the top OR a flat left wrist and a slightly "closed" clubface at the top. A weaker grip allows for a flat left wrist AND a square face, but restricts wrist movement.

It should be obvious at address if the leading edge of the clubface is directly facing the target and the back of the left is somewhat facing the sky they are not facing the same direction. This relationship doesn’t change during the swing

Hi kbp
the main reason both Lee and Fred have a strong grip is to cut out any wrist involvement. both player have a open stance. Lee a bit more open then Fred but both have a big hip sway and hold off the turning over of the right hand over the left after impact. having a strong grip helps you archivea this.
if you had a week grip then the right hand would want to roll over the left at impact. if you look at almost all the pros that play a fade as there bread and butter shots you will see they use a strong grip. where the golfers that draw have more hand and wrist action and weaker grip and the right hand comer over the left a lot more than the faders of the ball.
Cheers
Bill

[kbp]

Re: Wrists

I guess I should have said it different. A weak grip reduces the up and down "cocking" range of motion the anatomy will allow the left hand to have. Less speed available from this source. The club is dragged through impact. The strong grip has more available range of motion in the up/down wrist action and thus more speed available from this source.

IMO, the strong grip does not physically limit the available range of motion of the wrist. It does however ALLOW a player like Trevino to USE less of the available range of motion to get relatively square at impact. I would say that both Trevino and Couples HAVE to hold off because of the strong grip. Chicken/Egg, I guess.

Being "cupped" at address obviously requires compensations to get a FLW at impact, which is the open stance with the hands pulling inside before impact (the cutting action), or hands way out front (delofting) at impact. Not how I play, but nothing "wrong" with any of it, IMO.

I should have just left it out. It’s not relevant to the point that with a strong grip the back of the left hand and the clubface (obviously) cannot both be "square" to the plane at the top.

[bill reed]

Re: Wrists

I guess I should have said it different. A weak grip reduces the up and down "cocking" range of motion the anatomy will allow the left hand to have. Less speed available from this source. The club is dragged through impact. The strong grip has more available range of motion in the up/down wrist action and thus more speed available from this source.

IMO, the strong grip does not physically limit the available range of motion of the wrist. It does however ALLOW a player like Trevino to USE less of the available range of motion to get relatively square at impact. I would say that both Trevino and Couples HAVE to hold off because of the strong grip. Chicken/Egg, I guess.

Being "cupped" at address obviously requires compensations to get a FLW at impact, which is the open stance with the hands pulling inside before impact (the cutting action), or hands way out front (delofting) at impact. Not how I play, but nothing "wrong" with any of it, IMO.

I should have just left it out. It’s not relevant to the point that with a strong grip the back of the left hand and the clubface (obviously) cannot both be "square" to the plane at the top.

hi kbp
i think what you say is true for most golfers that stand square but not for golfers that stand open.
when you have a open stance like Trevino and take a strong grip and then bow your left wrist you also open the face. but due to your open stance this makes the face square not open. if you had a square stance then the face would be open.
i do think that when you have a strong grip (two and a half knuckles) then you need an open stance to square up the face as you will bow out your left wrist and hold off the roll of your wrists till well after impact.
if you took a strong grip and had a square or closed stance then i think you have to use your wrists to manipulate the club face back to square.
it it easier to have a weak grip with a closed to square stance and let the wrists work the club face from open to square to closed. with a open stance you play more open to square.
i think your set-up "ie open or closed stance" will then dictate if you have a strong, neutral or weak grip. and also your setup will make you either have a natural fade or draw.
if you have fast hands and lots of wrist movement then you will more likely play a draw and its a natural shot. having a bowed wrist and little wrist turn and roll over after impact and you will more likely play a fade.
your grip plays a big part in your type of shot and how you set up to the ball.
i don't think were disagreeing more looking at it diffrent ways.
cheers
bill

[kbp]

Re: Wrists

Good stuff, Bill.

I would say you do not NEED an open stance with a strong grip. The same effect as opening the stance at address can be achieved from a square stance by rotating the hips and body past square at impact. You’re body is effectively more "open" at impact. Greg J Willis’ "door" drill.

I would agree that addressing the ball square, with a cupped left wrist and then flattening the wrist doesn’t necessarily open the clubface. I would say that it "lags" the clubface behind the hands and delofts the club. Depending on how you subsequently adjust the setup to replace the club behind the ball determines the net effect. It is this "lag" of the club head that requires the additional body rotation or the open stance. The hands have to move further past the ball (to the inside, in this case) before impact.

The "wrist roll" versus the grip strength is not a function of "needing" to square the club. You can square a weak grip with body rotation. You can also roll. With a strong grip, however, you can’t roll to square the club. It’s a function of the geometry of the left forearm, the wrist, the back of hand, the club shaft when the face is square and level, at impact.

Set up with a very weak grip and a square clubface. Roll the forearms. The club head basically rolls closed generally about the axis of the shaft. A relatively small action since the arms and the shaft are relatively in the same line. Basically a squaring action along the plane. Now set up with a very strong grip and a square club face. Flatten the left wrist and then roll the forearms. Club head makes a big movement up and over, off plane. Not any kind of "squaring" action. The larger angles between the left arm and the shaft because of the back of the hand facing the sky and also the flattening "lag".

[bill reed]

Re: Wrists

hi kbp
good post and i agree with the points you make about the use of a flat and cupped wrist.
you said that you can still have a week grip and use the body rotation to square the club face rather then rolling the wrists over and i agree that you can but i think if you have a square to closed stance there is less body movement(ie hip slide) and more turn and it much easier to use your hand to roll over through impact than use your body rotation if your stance is square/closed.
i think there is two styles of play, the draw with a closed stance and the fade with a open stance. with the draw a weak grip works and with a fade the strong grip works if you have a strong grip and a closed stance then its hard to roll your hands over and makes it harder to draw the ball. its the same with the fade! if you have a weak grip the hands want to turn over through impact and close the face of the club as you come into the impact zone and you end up hitting the odd draw when your trying to hit a fade.
its like parts of the swing work in a one plane swing but wont work in a two plane swing and i think its the same with the grip. your grip have to match your setup and what your trying to do with the ball.
i think the bowed left wrist is better used in the open stance giving you a fade and it feels more natural.
with the draw your body does not sway as much to the left and seemed to rotate more around the hips letting your hands roll over naturally.
cheers
Bill

[kbp]

Re: Wrists

I agree those are two solid, natural approaches to the swing. I just don’t consider them to be quite so absolute, especially if the actions are understood. I think other combinations of grips and stances can be used as "standard", especially if a player wants to have a small arsenal of different ball flights. We haven’t even factored in the path variations.