stack and tilt

[Mike420]

Well having had a lesson the other day I was told I was leaving my weight on my right foot through impact and coming in to out which as many people probably know creates no end of problems. Anyway I had a look at the stack and tilt and it's essentially what i've been told to do. My question is, how does the stack and tilt work with a driver? I was under the impression a driver swing needed to give an ascending blow to the ball.

Thanks

[jbrunk]

Re: stack and tilt

It doesn't work with the driver. Unfortunately that is one of the bad little secrets. In my opinion, ST is only for the smallest % of folks as a fix, and only for that person that is swaying to the right off the ball really bad.

That is not the same as saying you need to 'feel' like a ST backswing.

[Mike420]

Re: stack and tilt

I tried keeping all my weight on my left foot while hitting my driver today. I couldn't stop skying the damn ball. I don't know if that's because of S&T or another reason. As for irons I find the results good.

[rotator]

Re: stack and tilt

Hi Mike,

Stack and tilt with the driver can cause skying, because the approach is so vertical, and you may be striking the ball near the crown. The vertical approach would put more backspin on the ball as well. In this case, you may be able to see ball marks high on the face and perhaps a skymark at the crown.

I found, in my experience with S&T, that I had trouble getting elevation on the flight, again because of the vertical approach.

Ted

[kenny m]

Re: stack and tilt

Hello fellow golfers,I am a very unfit 50 year old that had a very minor heart procedure 2 weeks ago { i had a stent put in an artery }.
I decided to start playing golf again to try and get a bit fitter so i looked out my clubs which had been lying under the stairs for 12 years and headed for the driving range.I had three sessions on the range over the week and felt i was hitting the ball just well enough not to make a fool of myself and booked a round at my local course,big mistake, after the first 2 holes i let a fourball play through.Anyway enjoyed the exercise if not the golf,played ****.

Anyway getting back home surfed the net for the usual tip's and came across this stack & tilt swing geeeeeeeeeeees what a difference.The next time i went to the range i took a 9 iron,4 iron & driver to try it out,and it was great,hit the ball well 75% of the time and as for the driver i hit 30 drives over 220yds and you could have put a blanket over 20 of them.

[golfshooter]

Re: stack and tilt

Hi all, Could someone explain the stack and tilt theory to me.I am hearing more and more references to it. I don't buy golf mags as I found myself trying every new fad that came along in an effort to improve my game.Predictably, I got myself in more trouble than batman without his utility belt.This one has got me intrigued because of its longevity.
Regards, Peter

[rotator]

Re: stack and tilt

Hi Peter,

Go to the Golf Digest home page. Down the left side of the page, there is a link to S & T. Golf Digest ran a couple of series to feature the instructions, straight from the teachers. When you open the pages, you will see other related hyperlinks, which give you the complete picture.

I hesitated referring you to this method, because I believe it would be hard on your back condition.

Regards,

Ted

[Mike420]

Re: stack and tilt

I went down the range again today and tried the conventional swing with my driver with a more upright swing as i've previously had problems with coming too flat. The results were a lot better. No skying of the ball and decent strikes, although I was losing a couple right, but nothing a bit of tweaking can't fix. However with my irons i'm convinced S&T is the way foward. Keeping my weight on my left foot definitely has resulted in more consistent well struck shots. I need to get down the course and see if im taking some good divots now.

[rotator]

Re: stack and tilt

Hi Peter (golfshooter),

Further to the S & T being hard on the back, here are extracts of comments from other instructors and therapists.

WILL LEAD TO BACK PROBLEMS
Stack & Tilt requires a tremendous amount of flexibility. Without that flexibility, which is mainly coming from the mid-back, the swing will seemingly develop a tremendous amount of sheer force [sideways movement] at the lumbar spine. And sheering is the most destructive force the lumbar spine has to deal with. Additionally, the Stack & Tilt requires an increased load on the lead knee. In the presence of arthritic or wear-and-tear issues, the lead knee will probably become inflamed and painful.
-- RALPH SIMPSON, Physical Therapist, 12 years in the PGA Tour fitness trailer

BENNETT / Not a single player has complained to us about back pain. A lot of times their backs feel better after they switch. We've been told by orthopedics and physical therapists that the hips pushing forward and upward reduces the amount of lumbar stress created by rotation and lead-knee stress due to sheer force. We're saying stand up, extend, stretch--that's better for the back than twisting.


>YOU BETTER BE PHYSICALLY GIFTED
I believe the hip thrust on the downswing is difficult physically, especially for average players. I think you need to be physically gifted to do it. I can see how it works, though.
-- TOM NESS, No. 48

PLUMMER / Golfers don't have a problem doing it; teachers have a problem explaining it. The bottom line is, if you don't thrust your hips through impact, the angle of descent is too steep and the player will struggle to hit the ball solidly.

Ted

[golfshooter]

Re: stack and tilt

Ted,
You have totally convinced me to leave it alone.I hope others get the picture.Everyone searches for those extra few metres.Truth of it is some of these new fads can be downright dangerous and not revealed as such until to late. They can also totally cock up an already good swing leaving them a lot of work to do to get back where they started. Thanks Ted,
Regards,Peter

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: stack and tilt

I tend to agree with that the S&T swing method is, for the most part, the idea of a couple folks looking to make a fast buck. That is by the way they presented it as an end all cure to better golf. The idea of keeping your weight on your front, or lead foot is nothing new. It's been around for many years. Especially when using the shorter irons, and one's short game. As for it causing back problems, I am not so sure. Just my opinion, but I think it matters little what type of swing method you use, if you do not practice proper posture at set up, and during the golf swing over a period of time you are going to develop back problems. Protecting your back is another good reason why bending at the hips, and not at the waist is pretty good advice. Yes, I know some professionals who have great posture also have back problems. This I attribute to the amount of time playing, or practicing their golf swing. With increased use, all things wear out faster. And then of course there are those awkward positions they sometimes have to hit the ball from. GJS

[rotator]

Re: stack and tilt

Hi GJS,

If you look at the S & T instructions and particularly the videos, you will see why it could be hard on the lower back.

One particular motion I think would be the main culprit, which I will come to later. First off, when you take your backswing you lean your upper body so your left shoulder points to the ground, your hips are tilted, while your left arm pulls inward across your chest. Virtually all your weight is on the front (left) leg. The first move on the downswing is to push the left leg into the ground, while shifting your hips up and standing up abruptly, while the arms are swinging down and finishing high. This is the motion, which is the controversial one, re possible back problems.

Here is a video, which gives the highlights of the swing.

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio.../stackandtilt2

I know golf is generally hard on the back, no matter what swing you use, and unfortunately Peter has a particularly serious condition.

I have been fortunate, in that my back has been strong, although it is not limber. I have abused it, lifting tons of stuff properly and improperly, and gotten away with it, so far.

I should say that I am not against S & T, as it does produce crisp shots. There are many on the tours, who are using it, with great success. I have tried it in the past and it would not be unrealistic to believe I may give it, or some elements of it, a go in future. I actually went to the range yesterday an d hit several shots, using it, as my iron play the day before was not that great.

I enjoy your posts.

Ted

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: stack and tilt

Thanks for the reply. You give a good explanation on the problems that swing method could cause a golfer. Just reading your explanation hurts......... GJS

Hi GJS,

If you look at the S & T instructions and particularly the videos, you will see why it could be hard on the lower back.

One particular motion I think would be the main culprit, which I will come to later. First off, when you take your backswing you lean your upper body so your left shoulder points to the ground, your hips are tilted, while your left arm pulls inward across your chest. Virtually all your weight is on the front (left) leg. The first move on the downswing is to push the left leg into the ground, while shifting your hips up and standing up abruptly, while the arms are swinging down and finishing high. This is the motion, which is the controversial one, re possible back problems.

Here is a video, which gives the highlights of the swing.

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio.../stackandtilt2

I know golf is generally hard on the back, no matter what swing you use, and unfortunately Peter has a particularly serious condition.

I have been fortunate, in that my back has been strong, although it is not limber. I have abused it, lifting tons of stuff properly and improperly, and gotten away with it, so far.

I should say that I am not against S & T, as it does produce crisp shots. There are many on the tours, who are using it, with great success. I have tried it in the past and it would not be unrealistic to believe I may give it, or some elements of it, a go in future. I actually went to the range yesterday an d hit several shots, using it, as my iron play the day before was not that great.

I enjoy your posts.

Ted

[slater170]

Re: stack and tilt

mike weir has given up on the S and T swing, after seeing him shoot 64 and 70 at the us open can say it was a wise decision

[ubizmo]

Re: stack and tilt

This is my second season using S&T. I started somewhere near the end of last summer, I guess. I haven't been on here for a while.

I am not only not "physically gifted," I am completely lacking in athletic ability.

The S&T swing has dropped my score from the 98-100 range to the 90-94 range. As you see, I'm still not a good golfer, but my ball striking is definitely better.

Bennett and Plummer contend that the only true "fundamental" of the golf swing is to contact the ground just in front of the golf ball. That in itself tells you that we're not talking about the driver. In any event, the S&T method is intended to help you to strike the ground just in front of the ball consistently. This is also, in essence, the first skill of the "Three Skills". It's also another way of "hitting down on the ball," since if you contact the ball on the way down, your iron must contact the ground after it contacts the ball.

They point out that the position of your sternum indicates the bottom of your golf swing.

So you start with your sternum just barely ahead of the ball. That means a slight weighting on the forward foot. As you take the club back, you keep the sternum there. Don't let it move back. Then as you swing down onto the ball, you can let it move forward slightly, as more weight shifts, but don't over do it. That's the "stack" part. Your weight stays "stacked" on the front foot, and your sternum stays pointed at the front edge of the ball.

In order to keep your sternum on that same line as you turn your torso and take the club back, you obviously must tilt a bit toward the target. If you don't, your sternum will naturally move away from the target. This is what you want to avoid. So that's the "tilt" part.

That's basically it. They advise a short backswing, to avoid twisting the body out of position.

My experience is: When I do this right, I get exceptional contact, on the sweet spot, and excellent distance. I don't do it right every time; I don't practice enough. Sometimes I still shift weight onto the back foot and get stuck there.

The S&T is very similar to the old "swing in a barrel" model.

With the driver, as others have pointed out, you obviously don't want to swing down onto the ball. But the other principles still work. You want the bottom of your swing to be a bit behind the ball. So adjust your ball position and sternum so that your sternum is lined up with a point an inch or two behind the ball, and keep it there throughout the swing. This way, the club face will strike the ball as it begins it's upward trajectory. Adjust for different desired ball flights. With the driver it's okay to set up with 50-50 weight, but it has to stay that way during the backswing through the transition. No shift to the right foot.

I have found the idea of using the sternum as a kind of plumb line for where I want my swing to bottom out is very useful with all clubs, even the putter.

In terms of feel, the way I feel it is this: As I take the club back, there is no increase in pressure on the ground with my right foot. It stays "light". Bennett and Plummer talk about bending the left leg and straightening the right, but for me it works better if I focus on the feel of my weight in my feet, and let the legs do their thing automatically.

I'm not qualified to give real instruction, obviously, but this is how it works for me.

Ubizmo