How do you "take-away"?

[BrianW]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Yeah I tried it for a while and found it really quite good actually. It's a nice fluid swing. I might actually give it a go again. It's requires less thought. So what i'm attempting to do at the moment is a two plane swing and thats a one plane swing method?

This is just one detail, there are a number of different principals in a one plane rotary swing.

I would suggest that you give both take away positions a try at the range and see which gives the best results for you.

[SirCliveWolfe]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

...snip... but this is why I come on a forum like this. It's great to get to see other peoples methods and perspectives on things.

That is exactly why I started this thread, it's nice to see some good discussion... even if we don't agree

[Mike420]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

This is just one detail, there are a number of different principals in a one plane rotary swing.

I would suggest that you give both take away positions a try at the range and see which gives the best results for you.

When I watched Clements take away video some time ago I thought wow thats definitely for me. So I went down the range and started using it on the course and had mixed results. However having just watched some youtube videos about it. One guy was like do not lower you right shoulder in the down swing otherwise you'll push and hook. A bad shot for me with that swing was a bad hook. I think if I were to try it now with my improved hip movement i'd have a lot more success. It's funny I tried to explain the take away to my pro, but he didn't really get what I was on about so I just left it. The pro did tell me I was coming too inside out which would probably be due to me using the one plane swing and lowering my right shoulder taking me too inside.

[Neil18]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

So many permutations! I love it!

I like the Ritter vid up to a point Bri. The only thing I don't do is the fanning-type action he shows with his hand after halfway back. But maybe that's just me getting out of the fades and into the draws.

One of the main things that got me out of slicing was getting the toe-up position later in the backswing. I think (correct me if I'm wrong Bri) that upright swingers will be looking to have toe up by parallel in the backswing. I see this still with the many people trying to learn the flatter swing.

I, however, like to look at my backswing and not see the toe-up position until the clubhead is well above my head in the backswing. From there, I can't get laid off and slice it and it's easier to draw it. The only way I slice it form there is outracing my arms and standing up out of the shot.

I guess I can't get on with the image of having my right palm slanting 45 degrees to the sky during the backswing because I was a habitual early roller of the wrists and always got too laid off.

[Mike420]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Ok well i've been down the range again and i'm very happy. 90% of my shots well struck and straight. I find the take away so simple and it helps with my tempo. Better find myself a pro familiar with the one plane swing .

[BrianW]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

So many permutations! I love it!

I like the Ritter vid up to a point Bri. The only thing I don't do is the fanning-type action he shows with his hand after halfway back. But maybe that's just me getting out of the fades and into the draws.

One of the main things that got me out of slicing was getting the toe-up position later in the backswing. I think (correct me if I'm wrong Bri) that upright swingers will be looking to have toe up by parallel in the backswing. I see this still with the many people trying to learn the flatter swing.

I, however, like to look at my backswing and not see the toe-up position until the clubhead is well above my head in the backswing. From there, I can't get laid off and slice it and it's easier to draw it. The only way I slice it form there is outracing my arms and standing up out of the shot.

I guess I can't get on with the image of having my right palm slanting 45 degrees to the sky during the backswing because I was a habitual early roller of the wrists and always got too laid off.

The hands and clubface have to be rotated back in the upper part of the backswing otherwise the club will not lie under the swing plane, the shaft would be pointing straight up like a car ariel at the top. Think of Hogans glass plane that rested over his shoulders and down to the ball, the clubface has to be rotated at the top to keep under the glass.

2 plane swingers (upright) need to create width in the first stage of the back swing, to do this both arms are extended out to the 9 o'clock position with a small amount of forearm rotation, this points the clubface directly skywards. The clubface is not properly on plane at this point but that does not matter as the clubhead returns on a different path in the downswing as it is dropped back onto plane by the forward push/rotation of the hips, head behind the ball and right shoulder working under.

An on plane (rotary/one plane) swing is simpler in its action as the club is kept on the shoulder plane going back and coming down again, the same back and down path being used, much simpler and repeatable. At the halfway back position the clubface is perpendicular to the plane and pointing towards the ball, just as it is in the downswing.

I posted this link on another thread it has some very interesting considerations on different swings and the way they are suited to body type.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...page&q=&f=true

[rotator]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

I use my right scapula. Slide it down and in. Takeaway complete. Everything else responds to that movement (hands, arms, shoulders).

Hi LowPost,

I've been intrigued by this move, ever since you posted it.

I wonder if you could elaborate on this. As you know I'm a curious type of person, particularly in learning something new and good in golf. I'm also not sure if you are a left or right handed golfer.

Thanks.

Ted

[LowPost42]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Hi Ted,

I'm a RH golfer.

I don't know that there's much to elaborate upon - the scapula is the medical term for your shoulder blade. I slide it down towards my hips and in towards my spine.

It's this pulling motion that moves my shoulders and arms and hands - and brings the club back.

If you were in your car and I told you to turn the wheels, what would you do? You'd turn the steering wheel or press the accelerator. You wouldn't jump out of the car and grab the rims and start hauling, would you? For hundreds of years golf instruction has been like that. Put the club into positions. Hit all these positions and you'll have a perfect golf swing. But the positions are a byproduct of moving the correct parts - like your wheels turning. Move the correct muscles to move the club. Moving my scapula, I can get the club into the same 3 dimensional space the same way, and within inches of the same space every time. Trying to 'place' the club in that 3 dimensional space however I want, however, will be much less accurate.

My entire swing model can be found at www.rotaryswing.com and search the site for RST - Rotary Swing Tour.

[BrianW]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Hi Ted,

I'm a RH golfer.

I don't know that there's much to elaborate upon - the scapula is the medical term for your shoulder blade. I slide it down towards my hips and in towards my spine.

It's this pulling motion that moves my shoulders and arms and hands - and brings the club back.

Ben,

It could well be (and probably is ) me being a bit thick here but I find your explanation of moving the scapula in this way very confusing, I cannot visualise what type of movement it is meant to produce. It sounds like it would pull down the right shoulder and push the lower body out to the left, I dont believe this would be the type of initial downswing movement promoted by a rotary type swing.

I do find it easier to focus on the manner the clubhead needs to work rather than the actions of the body that will achieve it, I do find that if I am clear on what the required outputs are then my body will intuitively understand what it needs to do to generate the inputs, I guess that's what I find so fascinating with 3 Skills. I suppose we all have our own preferred ways to process information.

[LowPost42]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Ben,

It could well be (and probably is ) me being a bit thick here but I find your explanation of moving the scapula in this way very confusing, I cannot visualise what type of movement it is meant to produce. It sounds like it would pull down the right shoulder and push the lower body out to the left, I dont believe this would be the type initial downswing movement promoted by a rotary type swing.

I do find it easier to focus on the manner the clubhead needs to work rather than the actions of the body that will achieve it, I do find that if I am clear on what the required outputs are then my body will intuitively understand what it needs to do to generate the inputs, I guess that's what I find so fascinating with 3 Skills. I suppose we all have our own preferred ways to process information.

It's not so much a down as it is an in - but I can feel what you're talking about - almost a 'side bend' action (which is incorrect). It's still a golf swing, we're still working on getting our back to the target (which this method achieves regardless of age or perceived flexibility). If you cross your arms across your chest, and focus on pulling your shoulder blade to the middle of your spine, you readily achieve the movement I'm talking about. Your right shoulder works back and your left works forward - all without actively moving the shoulders.

Don't get me wrong - there's a hundred ways to effectively swing a golf club. The method I'm on about is the one I've been searching for - based strongly in biomechanical movement and simplicity. I've heard it called 'distilled TGM' - as Homer Kelley went into great depths about how everything moves; but this is what to move to cause the chain reaction. What to move to cause the club to 'hit a position'. It appears that Tiger is basing his post-op swing on this method - weight back over the ankles, and a pull-pull rotary type of swing.

I love the simplicity in it - move the right muscles in the right sequence and the golf swing 'happens'. You still need educated hands - don't get me wrong. It's precise muscular movements that generate the positions that so many strive for.

The first time I got a glimpse of this (I think I posted about it) it was amazing to see every golfer there - from a 21 year old female to a 68 year old male, from 120 pounds to 300 get their backs to the target. A bunch of handicaps from scratch to 20, looking like pros at the top of the swing.

Am I suggesting that everybody surf over and start the conversion process? Not at all. This is not a magic bullet. This is not an overnight fix. If you're slicing it today you won't be drawing it tomorrow. I've put in reps every day since mid-January. I still put in reps. My takeaway is automatic. My backswing still needs work, and my downswing (and throughswing) are still miles away. But I'm still in a much better place, with a) a clear roadmap of where my swing is going and b) a clear plan on how to get there. The bonus is that as it comes, my ballstriking just gets better and better. I'm "getting away" with a few shots right now, but I'm hitting 2 or 3 perfectly per round right now as well.

Sorry for the total threadjack - but I'm pretty jazzed about where I'm headed in my golf life.

[BrianW]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

It's not so much a down as it is an in - but I can feel what you're talking about - almost a 'side bend' action (which is incorrect). It's still a golf swing, we're still working on getting our back to the target (which this method achieves regardless of age or perceived flexibility). If you cross your arms across your chest, and focus on pulling your shoulder blade to the middle of your spine, you readily achieve the movement I'm talking about. Your right shoulder works back and your left works forward - all without actively moving the shoulders.

Don't get me wrong - there's a hundred ways to effectively swing a golf club. The method I'm on about is the one I've been searching for - based strongly in biomechanical movement and simplicity. I've heard it called 'distilled TGM' - as Homer Kelley went into great depths about how everything moves; but this is what to move to cause the chain reaction. What to move to cause the club to 'hit a position'. It appears that Tiger is basing his post-op swing on this method - weight back over the ankles, and a pull-pull rotary type of swing.

I love the simplicity in it - move the right muscles in the right sequence and the golf swing 'happens'. You still need educated hands - don't get me wrong. It's precise muscular movements that generate the positions that so many strive for.

The first time I got a glimpse of this (I think I posted about it) it was amazing to see every golfer there - from a 21 year old female to a 68 year old male, from 120 pounds to 300 get their backs to the target. A bunch of handicaps from scratch to 20, looking like pros at the top of the swing.

Am I suggesting that everybody surf over and start the conversion process? Not at all. This is not a magic bullet. This is not an overnight fix. If you're slicing it today you won't be drawing it tomorrow. I've put in reps every day since mid-January. I still put in reps. My takeaway is automatic. My backswing still needs work, and my downswing (and throughswing) are still miles away. But I'm still in a much better place, with a) a clear roadmap of where my swing is going and b) a clear plan on how to get there. The bonus is that as it comes, my ballstriking just gets better and better. I'm "getting away" with a few shots right now, but I'm hitting 2 or 3 perfectly per round right now as well.

Sorry for the total threadjack - but I'm pretty jazzed about where I'm headed in my golf life.

Ah! A light bulb went on. I see now, you move your right shoulder blade back and around your spine so that you have completed a full shoulder turn. Yes, I like that.

[rotator]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Hi Ben and Brian,

I was initially confused with the down part also. I tried it and the result was the right shoulder going "down" because of this move, whereas it should be the left shoulder "going down" for a right hander. That's why I asked if Ben was left handed, in which case the right scapula moving in an down seemed a possible fit.

I do see the motion now, if it is more an in and "around". I kinda like the thought. I could see it being incorp'd in my early break takeaway, as I get get too steep with the arms lifting instead of the shoulders turning at times. This hoods the face, whereas I move the shoulder blade in and "around" as Ben says, it automatically promotes more of a turn. I like automatic, as my old brain is losing acuity rapidly.

I knew there was something good there, when I first saw the tip. I'm glad I asked for the clarification. Thanks for the lesson.

Ted

[LowPost42]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Yes, the down is slight - a couple inches, tops. But to try and move the scapula straight across to the spine creates a shrugging motion in the shoulder - hence why 'down' needs to be in there.

[kbp]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

LP, I like the idea of switching the focus from what the club is doing to what the body is doing. For some people, it’s like a light being switched on. Especially for people who know a fair amount about what the swing is supposed to be doing, but can’t seem to make it happen, even with extensive practice and lessons. Not everyone’s brain and body are wired the same way.

I understand you are in the middle learning a system, so maybe now is not the time, but at some point you might enjoy studying Austin and also Kelvin Miyahira, if you haven’t already.

[dlaville]

Re: How do you "take-away"?

Neil,

As I explained previously the direction on the clubface halfway back is different depending on your swing type,

Exactly right, depending on if you're a hitter or swinger. There is only one way we can move the golf club and that is by applying force to it through pressure points. This pressure point is different depending on if you hit or swing with the club.

A hitter keeps the face perpindicular to the plane in what we call angled hinging. With this hinge action the face of the club will be parallel with your spine half way back and places the pressure point behind the shaft and in-line with your right forearm. Now you can drive your right forearm into impact - hitting.

A swinger rotates the clubface to on-plane at the start of the backswing so half way back toe is "up" towards the sky. This places the pressure point on top of the shaft. When the downswing pivot starts the thrust it creates is applied to the the club in a direction that uncocks the left wrist than transfers the velocity into clubface role - swinging.