flipping hands @ impact

[dagosa]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

That's OK, we are here to help each other.

I am not a teacher just an experienced golf junkie who plays a lot of golf, has learned and studied the game for a long time and likes to help others by his experience. I assumed you are similar.

Even an experienced golf teacher fits into the golf junkie category too. No need to explain. Your advice is always good and sound on a game that has a lot of legitimately different points of view.

[keiko]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Do you have any information on how slowing the hands around the center of the body prior to impact makes the clubhead move faster?
I personally feel this slowing of the hands, which creates a whipping action and my longest drives.

That's OK, we are here to help each other.

I am not a teacher just an experienced golf junkie who plays a lot of golf, has learned and studied the game for a long time and likes to help others by his experience. I assumed you are similar.

[Ringer]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

I find that most people flip at the ball to try and get it up in the air. Do you think this might have something to do with it?

[BrianW]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Do you have any information on how slowing the hands around the center of the body prior to impact makes the clubhead move faster?
I personally feel this slowing of the hands, which creates a whipping action and my longest drives.

Some time ago I posted three articles with some of my views on the swing. The attached link is to the third article where I tried to explain this action:

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/c...ath-111-a.html

[BrianW]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

I find that most people flip at the ball to try and get it up in the air. Do you think this might have something to do with it?

No, that's different. I have replied to the previous post, hopefully it will help to explain.

[keiko]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Brian,
Just stumbled across an article in journal of sports medicine by nesbitt and serrano. unfortunately, it won't paste all at once but it is available online.

©Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2005)

4, 520-533
Your article is much easier to read and more practical.
Thought you may be interested though.
http://www.jssm.org

Research article
WORK AND POWER ANALYSIS OF THE GOLF SWING

Steven M. Nesbit

�� and Monika Serrano

Department of Mechanical Engineering, Lafayette College, Easton, PA, USA

Received: 16 June 2005 / Accepted: 10 October 2005 / Published (online): 01 December 2005

ABSTRACT

A work and power (energy) analysis of the golf swing is presented as a method for evaluating the
mechanics of the golf swing. Two computer models were used to estimate the energy production,
transfers, and conversions within the body and the golf club by employing standard methods of
mechanics to calculate work of forces and torques, kinetic energies, strain energies, and power during the
golf swing. A detailed model of the golf club determined the energy transfers and conversions within the
club during the downswing. A full-body computer model of the golfer determined the internal work
produced at the body joints during the downswing. Four diverse amateur subjects were analyzed and
compared using these two models. The energy approach yielded new information on swing mechanics,
determined the force and torque components that accelerated the club, illustrated which segments of the
body produced work, determined the timing of internal work generation, measured swing efficiencies,
calculated shaft energy storage and release, and proved that forces and range of motion were equally
important in developing club head velocity. A more comprehensive description of the downswing
emerged from information derived from an energy based analysis.

KEY WORDS:

Golf biomechanics, work, energy, power, computer modeling.

INTRODUCTION

Since

[BrianW]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Some time ago I posted three articles with some of my views on the swing. The attached link is to the third article where I tried to explain this action:

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/c...ath-111-a.html

I just edited my article and added another good video that assists with explaining the way the left arm folding assists with accelerating the clubhead.

[rogue]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Unfortunately flipping is part of the agme for 99% of amateurs. The ones who dont are usually low single figures or pros. In my experience most flippers are trying to get the ball in the air rather than letting the loft do the work. DUH i hear u saying, and it is an abvious comment so rather than bore you with what and why a flip occurs, heres a few suggestions on how to solve it.

Get a golf ball with a nail through it angled down. use it as a practice aid next to the real golf ball u want to hit. Spend 3 practice waggles feeling as if the club is a hammer and you are directing enegry through the nail (this drill can also help with swing path). then walk into the ball you want to hit and repeat the motion. A downward strike will automatically get the clubshaft leaning forward and the wrists in the correct position and weight on left side.

Sometimes however a player is not able to make a downward strike from a normal (forward) ball position (many reasons too long to list). In this case a less orthodox but more instinctive way would be to

• draw a paint line on the floor
• place the ball on the paint line
• place the ball back in the stance
• hit down onto the ball, check where u hit the ground in relation to the line (ideally the divot will start on or slightly ahead of the line)
• if you keep striking behind the line, put the ball further back

as i said, not orthodox but it works. Will get you compressing the ball and pushing it out there much lower and further)

[dagosa]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

It sounds like a good strategy, though ultimately the player has to become acclimated to what it "feels" like to hit the ball correctly. I have a problem with "moving the ball" around and would prefer to just adjust stance width. I've been a proponent of correcting lead wrist cupping, and a completely neutral grip to monitor your ability to square the club. Correcting the lead wrist on the back swing, and maintaining it through the swing...back and forth until it becomes doable w/o much thought will do wonders for any hit down strategy.

The problem with trying to hit down is, you're above the ball and your sight line is distorted and you may not be making the anatomical changes necessary. Just moving the ball back, opens the club face(a new problem) on contact which requires a grip change compensation. Make the bottom of your arc in the same place every time with minimal weight shift and middle foot weight distribution and try to square club face prior to impact with ground which is REAL easy with correct lead wrist angle. To do this, a bowed or flat lead wrist is a must. Everything else in the entire golf swing discussion is secondary. The divot will tell all if you're doing it right. Don't even need a ball to know you'll have solid contact.

Follow the A players around and check their divots....you'll look a little foolish, but you'll get the point. For most, it starts well towards their lead heal on most EVERY shot and has consistent depth, side to side. You can't change body mechanics.

[rogue]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

I agree completely with almost all that you say above. I also beleive that making sure the bottom of the swing arc is the NUMBER ONE key here as you have said, and divot control/analysis is such an important thing to determine angle of atack, swing path through impact and strike quality. my main suggestion is the nail (angled down about 1-30 degrees depending on what club you use) from a good ball position and with a good grip. If this is acheived the wrist in many cases is much flatter at impact. although there may be other (more technical ways) to acheive this, an instinctive approach is much more valuable at first.

However to 'compensate' for this good ball position you need to 'compensate' by having a perfect grip and swing too. most players have poor swings and are not willing to / not able to / not understanding of the correct way to swing. In these cases a player may have to move the ball back (and strengthen the grip) to which case the only important thing is where they hit the ground (hence the paint line drill).

To highlight what i mean, i have taught a player with one leg who cannot shift weight and get into a strong impact position so he has to play the ball actually behind his only leg (right) but hits the ball just fine. Another player i teach cannot shift his weight to his left side due to a knee surgery. He is an ex professional who now has to swing in a kind of reverse stack and tilt fashion with the ball opposite right foot, but he hits the ball just fine albeit a little shorter from loss of weight shift. There are other compensations we have had to make to make this work for sure, but the overall goal is control of the ball regardless of how you do it. There are more factors to think of than just swing mechanics. Impact physics IS THE BE ALL AND END ALL with consistency of repetition of these laws as the ultimate goal.

P.s i played for many years as a scratch golfer with a very cupped wrist position at impact. Sure i hit the ball high and weak (have since solved it with nail analogy) so it is not a MUST. What i was very good at was bottom of swing control, which (although harder to maintain with a cupped wrist) can be acheived still with unorthodox techniques.

I agree with your last comment about good players and where their divots start also. But good players are usually so because of the way they are able to move their bodies. one of the guys i described above are not able to do this, as many many more golfers are not without hours and hours of training (its up to them if they put the hours in, hence why i gave two apporaches above).

Good comments, i will be interested in your thoughts

[BrianW]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

I agree completely with almost all that you say above. I also beleive that making sure the bottom of the swing arc is the NUMBER ONE key here as you have said, and divot control/analysis is such an important thing to determine angle of atack, swing path through impact and strike quality. my main suggestion is the nail (angled down about 1-30 degrees depending on what club you use) from a good ball position and with a good grip. If this is acheived the wrist in many cases is much flatter at impact. although there may be other (more technical ways) to acheive this, an instinctive approach is much more valuable at first.

However to 'compensate' for this good ball position you need to 'compensate' by having a perfect grip and swing too. most players have poor swings and are not willing to / not able to / not understanding of the correct way to swing. In these cases a player may have to move the ball back (and strengthen the grip) to which case the only important thing is where they hit the ground (hence the paint line drill).

To highlight what i mean, i have taught a player with one leg who cannot shift weight and get into a strong impact position so he has to play the ball actually behind his only leg (right) but hits the ball just fine. Another player i teach cannot shift his weight to his left side due to a knee surgery. He is an ex professional who now has to swing in a kind of reverse stack and tilt fashion with the ball opposite right foot, but he hits the ball just fine albeit a little shorter from loss of weight shift. There are other compensations we have had to make to make this work for sure, but the overall goal is control of the ball regardless of how you do it. There are more factors to think of than just swing mechanics. Impact physics IS THE BE ALL AND END ALL with consistency of repetition of these laws as the ultimate goal.

P.s i played for many years as a scratch golfer with a very cupped wrist position at impact. Sure i hit the ball high and weak (have since solved it with nail analogy) so it is not a MUST. What i was very good at was bottom of swing control, which (although harder to maintain with a cupped wrist) can be acheived still with unorthodox techniques.

I agree with your last comment about good players and where their divots start also. But good players are usually so because of the way they are able to move their bodies. one of the guys i described above are not able to do this, as many many more golfers are not without hours and hours of training (its up to them if they put the hours in, hence why i gave two apporaches above).

Good comments, i will be interested in your thoughts

Hi Rogue.

Your imagery of striking a nail into a ball is good and is used by the 3 Skills teaching method that had been discused a lot on this site. Have you heard of the book 'Nail It' by Joe Hagan that promotes the system?

[rogue]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Yeah its one of my favourites. I absolutely love the fact that the guy does not give any swing information, he allows the player to use their own way to acheive it. I was teaching this method before the book came out though, but everything in his book just rang true with me. Ive been to both sides, the uber technical and the complete instuitive. it was a hard time to get more instinctive as it went against my analytical nature, but luckily my clients and my own golf improved markedly through things such as tenniz, football, throwing, nail, axe drills, cricket etc and many other analogies. I use nail it a lot in my teaching, but have implemented a lot of other things that i consider necessary for good golf, all based on impact physcis as opposed to swing mechanics. In my view, getting someone to swing the club pretty can often do more harm than good.

A player usually swings the club the way they do from a number of different reasons, and unless a professional is capable in all aspects (an innacheivable task) they should not teach a method. Sure we all have a view of how a swing should look, but a good coach will allow for many more idiosynchrosies in a swing. Tha aim of the game is to control the ball, that is a skill not a technique issue (technique is a byproduct of skill)

[dagosa]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

However to 'compensate' for this good ball position you need to 'compensate' by having a perfect grip and swing too. most players have poor swings and are not willing to / not able to / not understanding of the correct way to swing. In these cases a player may have to move the ball back (and strengthen the grip) to which case the only important thing is where they hit the ground (hence the paint line drill).

I guess I misunderstood....moving the ball back and strengthening the grip does work for many. I just had a problem for doing it differently with every club. I too have played with a low handicap player, with everything in the middle for all clubs. If that's what you mean, I see. At some point I feel you have to give up some things. He struggles with a driver and uses a 3 wood of the deck from the tee. It works for him. But he's 6'6" with power to spare.

At some point, great athletic ability, or lots of experience in doing what you do differently, but successfully, has to be a substitute. Notice I've said most, low handicappers have the points I've made in common the better players.

What I like about this discussion is the average duffer has to realize that he CAN make dramatic improvements if he really tries to standardize his impact position with the better players, and NOT try to copy their swings per say or be caught up in extraneous and less important issues. Using the club the way it's meant to be used is a so much more forgiving way to play, mediocre players , contrary to what the think, can improve dramatically. And ANYTHING that works to wrap their mind around it is great.
Just that mind set helps chipping and putting as well....it just gets better. I like your comment about getting the player to swing pretty can do more harm than good.

I feel so bad for those who have played for so many years, tried to improve in their own way, but not wrapped their mind around the concept. Does the average player realize how far the divot can and should be beyond the ball , especially with poor lies, which we tend to face more than the better player. That's a big problem for me with the nail analogy. But, as a means to an end, it's a great teaching tool for many...

[keiko]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

Quite honestly, the main problems for most amateurs are:
Tension in hands, arms, shoulders
failure to finish the backswing
lack of tray position at the top
fast tempo
poor alignment
taking too little club then trying to hit it too hard
lack of understanding and practice

I guess I misunderstood....moving the ball back and strengthening the grip does work for many. I just had a problem for doing it differently with every club. I too have played with a low handicap player, with everything in the middle for all clubs. If that's what you mean, I see. At some point I feel you have to give up some things. He struggles with a driver and uses a 3 wood of the deck from the tee. It works for him. But he's 6'6" with power to spare.

At some point, great athletic ability, or lots of experience in doing what you do differently, but successfully, has to be a substitute. Notice I've said most, low handicappers have the points I've made in common the better players.

What I like about this discussion is the average duffer has to realize that he CAN make dramatic improvements if he really tries to standardize his impact position with the better players, and NOT try to copy their swings per say or be caught up in extraneous and less important issues. Using the club the way it's meant to be used is a so much more forgiving way to play, mediocre players , contrary to what the think, can improve dramatically. And ANYTHING that works to wrap their mind around it is great.
Just that mind set helps chipping and putting as well....it just gets better. I like your comment about getting the player to swing pretty can do more harm than good.

I feel so bad for those who have played for so many years, tried to improve in their own way, but not wrapped their mind around the concept. Does the average player realize how far the divot can and should be beyond the ball , especially with poor lies, which we tend to face more than the better player. That's a big problem for me with the nail analogy. But, as a means to an end, it's a great teaching tool for many...

[Chuck MacW]

Re: flipping hands @ impact

I can very much relate to Rogue's message about the paint line and moving the ball back in the stance. I've been doing this for about 6 months now and it has helped my iron shots immeasurably. I started doing it after reading Bobby Clampett's Impact Zone, in which he seems to teach the swing as Joe Hagan does; i.e., swing dynamics rather than swing style.

One of Clampett's drills he calls the sand drill, which is the same as the paint line drill. Draw a line in the sand which represents the ball position. Swing so that your divot starts just in front of the line. In other words your swing bottom is about 4 inches in front of the line (the ball).

Yours

Chuck