Instruction for Amateurs

[bphillips]

How many people out there would support and become a member, of a golf instruction organization that is made up of amateurs only. The members would be dedicated to learning from one another with the goal in mine to abandon traditional teachings and to form their own teaching model. Lots of work has got to be done to do this, give it your best thoughts, and lets see where this goes.

Bill P
Amateur

[ReefBoy]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

Why reinvent the wheel Bill?

Christopher

[Slavera]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

Why reinvent the wheel Bill?

Christopher

Because this particular wheel is Buckled mate.....................

[LowPost42]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I like what you're thinking - where's a better model?

When I started golfing (back in 2004) I figured there had to be someone who taught the biomechanically correct way of swinging a club. I found two sources - The Golfing Machine (TGM) and a woman by the name of Alison Thietje. The former appealed to my left-brained self, but was tough to chew through with quite a bit of tech-speak and I thought that it was far too detailed. An excellent study of the minute movements of the swing, but too much to sift through to find the movements worth working on. The latter was expensive - far too expensive for a beginner to pursue. So, like many of you, I went about the trial and error method of self-teaching and eventually succumbed to lessons. The very next summer was the Hardy "Plane Truth" release - and I realise that I was a natural one planer. Enter my search for a one plane instructor, leading me to Chuck Quinton at oneplanegolfswing.com. I've been there since 2005 - and he's recently joined forces with Alison Thietje to combine the rotary swing with her movement model - biomechanically correct movement that ingrains great repeatablility.

Now, the Champions Tour is a great example of unorthodox swings that produce low scores. As a clubfitter, I argue that you can fit a high-capper that produces the same swing (roughly) over and over. Their flail move similarily most times.

The thing about the new teaching from Mr. Quinton and Ms. Thietje is that there's no illusion of a quick fix or magic move. Just simple building blocks built on the readily known scientific foundation of stackable learning (ie you've gotta crawl before you can walk, grunt before you talk kind of thing).

Amateurs teaching amateurs is a nice idea - but you still have to agree on what body movements to perform, in what sequence, and how to perform them. I agree with Quinton and Thietje that the issue with all other golf instruction is that they're concerned with how the club moves, when the concern should be with how the body moves. To use an automotive analogy, you turn the tires on the car by turning the steering wheel (which moves the linkage and steering arm to turn the tire) - not by focusing on how to move the tire itself. A shift in thinking for sure, but with already proven results.

[BrianW]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

As a real golf nut I have studied many differing systems and philosophies on what is the best way to learn how to play golf. I have taken many lessons by different instructors, read countless books, watched videos, discussed the subject with others, watched people swing their clubs, used sites like this forum, practiced extensively (Until my hands bled ), experimented with different swing styles.

One thing that always fascinates me is the differing thoughts we have on the way a golf swing should be executed and whether it is particular parts of the body or focus should be on the golf club, how detailed (or not) our understanding of the kinetics should be, or whether we should just hang on and let it happen

My personal opinion is that we can learn from many sources, some professional, some amateur and some slightly obtuse. One thing I know for sure though is that I love this game every bit as much now as I did all those years ago when I started playing

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

As long as it involved learning the game from green to tee, I'd give it a look. In other words become a very good putter before moving on to chipping. Once proficient at chipping, then move on to pitch shots. Eventually the learning golfer has "earned" the right, and has the game to play from the tee box. Just my opinion on how the game should taught, and learned to be played. GJS

[bphillips]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

Not trying to re-invent anything. What I am saying is that the amateur is so confused with all the articles in the golf magizines, and what you see on the Golf Channel, and what you hear from professional teachers. What amateur golfers should be looking for is a model that fits their ability to repeat the golf swing. Amateures can not perform some of the fine tuned motions that the magizines and professionals teach. Magazines can't teach you anything, they are for information and they want you to buy their product, but the answers will never be there for most because most can't perform ( or take the time to peform ) what they are selling. If one goes for a lesson with a professional teacher, ask him to help you find the most optimum swing for you with the ability that the good lord has given you. Don't ask me to try and perform motions the big boys do on a daily bases. It is a fact that if I don't have time to perform these motions on a tight schedule as the pros what you have taught me will fail. The one thing that is missing here is we as amateures are looked upon as people who need help from the professional ranks. I don't know about you but I have a brain and two arms, two legs, two eyes, and the ability to learn. I have taught myself to play to a single digit handicap, and I have helped people find a swing that they could repeat without spending hours on drills and money on what I thought was right or wrong with their swing. I am not a professional, I am a true amateur, I read books for information and I check out all the new Secrets of golf as they come out. Anyone who says they found the secret is trying to get in your back pocket, and we as amateures buy it hook line and sinker. Kind of like a lottery, If I don't buy it I just might miss out on what will make me a great golfer. Just imagine a group of amateur golfers getting together each month and discussing what they have learned in the years they have played the game. Seems to me the years of knowledge would be much greater at this event compared to the information you would get from a professional event. bp

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I understand what your are saying BP. Instructors all have different ideas on how the club should be swung. Very few pro tour players (if any) have the same swing. Golf swings are like snow flakes. It would be the same with amateurs, who for the most part would have ideas that originated from tour players, instructors, and any one of the 9.6 +/-million 'google" articles that deal with how to swing a golf club.

What all successful golfers do have in common is a great club face position at impact with the ball. It's the most important position of the golf swing. How one gets there can be explained millions of different ways.

Getting a bunch of amateurs together to discuss their ideas on the golf swing is intriguing to me. I have 50+ years of golf under my belt, and I still learn stuff from new ideas. What I would guard against is getting too many different swing topics/threads going at one time to avoid confusion. You don't learn the golf swing over night. Actually I don't think anyone completely learns the golf swing. By the same token you can't thoroughly discuss the golf swing over night. What you are suggesting could take a very long time, if done correctly to my way of thinking.

Also, if you were to set up something like this up, who would own the information rights? That might be an important issue to some who offer their opinions.

[Shamed04]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

As an amatuer, I think this could be a great idea. Ive been playing now for almost 4 years and the best golf I ever played all came from the first year. It was all natural ability, I broke 80 in 3 months, shot a 71 in 5. It got me thinking I could be pretty good so I started getting lessons. All the great knowlege that was shoved into my brain ruined my golf. Ive completely lost my natural swing. I think the best way to learn is to have a basic understanding in your mind, good fundamentals i.e. setup and then going out and doing what feels right to you. This could help people get that swing without all the confusion of millions of swing thoughts.

[bphillips]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

As an amatuer, I think this could be a great idea. Ive been playing now for almost 4 years and the best golf I ever played all came from the first year. It was all natural ability, I broke 80 in 3 months, shot a 71 in 5. It got me thinking I could be pretty good so I started getting lessons. All the great knowlege that was shoved into my brain ruined my golf. Ive completely lost my natural swing. I think the best way to learn is to have a basic understanding in your mind, good fundamentals i.e. setup and then going out and doing what feels right to you. This could help people get that swing without all the confusion of millions of swing thoughts.

Hey shamed 04
I like what you said, we all have some natural abilities or we wouldn't even think of picking up a golf club. Your dead on when it comes to what feels good or natural to you in the golf swing. Most of what we learn from the teachers and magizines are not possable to do unless you have lots of free time on your hands to practice what they preach. All I want people to do is just think for a minute about the numbers. Over the past 100 years or so even with the change in equipment, the average amateur score has not come down. To me, that would indicate there is something wrong with the system of learning and applying what you have learned to reduce the handicaps. The golf swing discussion can be put in the same catagory as releigon and politics, with one exception, there hasn't been any bloodshed yet. And the other gentleman who responded to this thread, you are also right, get the clubhead to an impact position that you can play and enjoy the game. This idea was just a thought, and yess it would be very difficult to pull off, and may be a bad idea in the long run. This forum is made up of some pretty good people and golfers, maybe we already have the vehicle that I have suggested in this thread. I wish the best to everyone here and hope you don't get too discouraged with the teaching and learning system we currently have now. I just think if we think outside the box every once in a while we may find an acorn. Thanks everyone for your responses, it made a diference in the way I think. bp

[Shamed04]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I think the main reason all our club pros do teach so diff. is because they all have a diff. feeling. Ill state the obvious, again, everyone has a diff. swing, some people just havent found it. When I started getting lessons from some of the top teachers in my neck of the woods. They each tried to get me to do something differnt. What they are doing is trying to get you to have the feeling they have in their swing. I think the only way to really teach people is; first they have to have some athletic nature, then its simple. Like me for example, I found my own swing, what I really needed in a lesson was someone to evaluate what I had going on and then maybe help me fix certain things, i.e. position at top, plan etc. not try to start from scratch and get me to swing like them.

[bphillips]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I understand what your are saying BP. Instructors all have different ideas on how the club should be swung. Very few pro tour players (if any) have the same swing. Golf swings are like snow flakes. It would be the same with amateurs, who for the most part would have ideas that originated from tour players, instructors, and any one of the 9.6 +/-million 'google" articles that deal with how to swing a golf club.

What all successful golfers do have in common is a great club face position at impact with the ball. It's the most important position of the golf swing. How one gets there can be explained millions of different ways.

Getting a bunch of amateurs together to discuss their ideas on the golf swing is intriguing to me. I have 50+ years of golf under my belt, and I still learn stuff from new ideas. What I would guard against is getting too many different swing topics/threads going at one time to avoid confusion. You don't learn the golf swing over night. Actually I don't think anyone completely learns the golf swing. By the same token you can't thoroughly discuss the golf swing over night. What you are suggesting could take a very long time, if done correctly to my way of thinking.

Also, if you were to set up something like this up, who would own the information rights? That might be an important issue to some who offer their opinions.

Hey GolfjunkieSr
Will agree 100% what you said, thanks. Let me give you something to think about. The full swing is very hard to leard even if you are a pro. The reason is because there is so many moving parts and great distances to cover in this motion. I beleive that there is a swing out there that most if not all amateurs could use effectively. Don't know where it is but I beleive it will exesit in the near future. The reason the scores haven't come down in the past 100 years is very simple. We all practice the wrong stuff, weather it be in the full swing, which everyone spends probably 95% of their time doing and get very little results. The less motion part of the game is causing all the trouble. What part is that you ask it is chipping and putting. You don't have to be a pro to put and chip like a pro. There is very little motion in these shots and anyone can get efficient at them. Take the time you spend on the full swing and apply it to the short game and watch you score come down. We are being taught and pushed by magazines and the advertising media to spend our money and time on learning something that in my mind can't be taught or learned on a successful basis. There are basics to a golf swing, that is about all you can learn from any teacher or the Golf Channel, practice what makes the most since the short game, and get a lesson or two on the basics for the golf swing and use it to develope your own swing. Half the strokes in 18 holes are putting, what makes more since, spending time and money on the swing or putting like a pro. Thanks for your comments, youare very smart when it comes to golf. bp

[kbp]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

We also have to deal with the fact that people are all wired different. Some are visual learners, some by feel, some by instinct, some rote, some comprehensional, etc.. There are also different levels of intelligence amongst students.

I disagree with the premise that amateurs cannot swing fundamentally the same as a pro. As far...no. As precise....no. That’s where the practice, the fitness, the "secrets" and/or the "gifts" come in. There are older men at my club with limited flexibility and strength, who are very good golfers, average Joe’s in their younger days, no secret magic golfing mutants. They have the same fundamentals as a "pro" swing. There contemporaries at the club that don’t have those fundamentals can’t keep up anymore. I’ve also seen many young children get the basics of a so-called "pro" swing in very little time, when taught properly.

The main problem is that golfers don’t understand what the pro is doing and they don’t know why they are supposed to be doing it. They also don’t know what is fundamental and what is beyond fundamental. A 90 degree shoulder turn is NOT fundamental. SOME kind of shoulder turn is. Maybe an even bigger problem is that most of us already have the wrong movements ingrained and change is hard learn and hard to trust.

I also disagree with the premise that there is some model that requires little practice and returns adequate results. Some things are hard to learn, including the golf swing. You wouldn’t expect to become a competent musician without a lot of practice. You could probably learn to play Mary Had a Little Lamb perfectly and very consistently by some simplified method, but is that the level you want to play golf at? To be perfectly honest, it’s fairly amazing how many people continue to play and enjoy golf without practicing at all.

I DO agree with the premise that the golf swing is poorly taught and poorly written about, which is why I would be more than happy to help.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I don't know how smart I am when it comes to golf BP, but thank you for the kind words. There have been times when I thought I would have been smarter to take up knitting, or watching paint dry.

A basic topic I might suggest you should have, should you start this, is to talk about causes, and effects of poor shots. Example: A "slice' is the first, and foremost problem a golfer will encounter from the day they start playing, till the day they quit playing. If a thorough understanding of what causes this poor shot, was understood by the golfer, he/she would slice less often. When they did slice a shot, they at the very least, would know what to look for in their swing to help with an on course fix.

[Shamed04]

Re: Instruction for Amateurs

I don't know how smart I am when it comes to golf BP, but thank you for the kind words. There have been times when I thought I would have been smarter to take up knitting, or watching paint dry.

A basic topic I might suggest you should have, should you start this, is to talk about causes, and effects of poor shots. Example: A "slice' is the first, and foremost problem a golfer will encounter from the day they start playing, till the day they quit playing. If a thorough understanding of what causes this poor shot, was understood by the golfer, he/she would slice less often. When they did slice a shot, they at the very least, would know what to look for in their swing to help with an on course fix.

Understanding is only part of it. When I hit a bad shot I know exactly what I did...(over the top with face at target.....release the club to early in the downswing...blah blah blah) The fact is I know exactly what Im doing wrong and I still cant get my brain to do it right. Shots are created by only 2 things, clubpatch and whether your club is sqaure to your target line or not. Now what you do with the rest of your body is up to you and will be a result of the power put behind the ball. Its a crazy game