Fade & Draw Jack's way

[nilitara]

Hi guys

I've just watched an interesting clip on YouTube, it was the great Jack Nicklaus explaining how he would shape either a fade or draw shot. He would either open the club face for a fade, and close it for a draw. Not once did he mention opening or closing his stance at address. I'm guessing he's using the club face set-up to shape his shots as opposed to his alignment.

As a high handicapper, it does seem to me an easier way, just wondering other peoples thoughts on this.

Nige

[rogue]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Hi guys

I've just watched an interesting clip on YouTube, it was the great Jack Nicklaus explaining how he would shape either a fade or draw shot. He would either open the club face for a fade, and close it for a draw. Not once did he mention opening or closing his stance at address. I'm guessing he's using the club face set-up to shape his shots as opposed to his alignment.

As a high handicapper, it does seem to me an easier way, just wondering other peoples thoughts on this.

Nige

i completely agree with this. there are no hard and fast rules about how you can go about shaping a ball. Some open their stance for a fade, some close their stance for a fade. I know a pro on tour who even closes his clubface at set up (with a weaker grip) to hit a fade, on the basis that the closed clubface will signify to his mind where he want the club to swing through impact, the weaker grip opens the face through the swing.

The only real rules to shaping are the laws of physics. IF clubface and swing path are matched up, the ball will go straight. if there is any difference (clubface left, straight, right vs swingpath left, straight, right etc) then the ball will curve as spin is imparted. here are my simple rules for shaping

fade = divot left, open clubface
draw = divot right, close clubface

how you change the divot? conscious effort in the swing, or just aiming your body further left or right until divot aims left or right of target. How to change the clubface? start with it in a different position (like Jack did), use a different grip or use a different hand action through impact. i prefer Jacks method as it doesnt require you change the swing.

I love this part of the game though, and think that it can teach so many players how to hit the ball straighter. My record is to be able to cure slicers in under 1 hour (or at least help them to understand and physically hit draws within that session) in at least 95% of cases through the above simple techniques

[BrianW]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

The simple way is to aim your stance in the direction you want the ball to start off then aim the clubface in the direction you want the ball to end up, then hit along the line of your stance. There are no divots off the tee and everyone does not make them anyway.

[rogue]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Ok, what i mean is aim your SWINGPATH to the right or left of the target. Aiming your stance will only be true if you have a perfect swing. Every human is at least a few degrees in to out or out to in, so just aiming your stance is not precise enough. Problem is for average joe is they dont understand exactly what their swing path tendancies are. a slicer for example, may benefit more from aiming slightly right of target, doing their usual over the top move and still managing to get the divot left of the target (when attempting an intentional fade). If a slicer tried the 'aim feet and clubface' method they would have such an open face and left swing path the ball would go straight up with no distance.

Im not saying ur wrong Brian, you are right. But in my experience the 'aim feet aim clubface' method is too blase. it doesnt attempt to understand the impact physics of clubface and ball contact producing spin. People end up genuinely beleiving that they hit a ball somewhere becasue their feet are not lined up perfect.

feet influence swingpath - swingpath is key. divot is just one way of analysing that if you can find another way of doing it (nail analogy is great) then use that by all means

[BrianW]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

I still think its fairly straight forward. You just need to use your normal alignment (whatever it is) and use it to send the ball in the initial take-off direction, then point the clubface where you want the ball to finish. If you cannot send the ball in a desired direction then don't bother with shaping, sort that one out first.

[rogue]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

I still think its fairly straight forward. You just need to use your normal alignment (whatever it is) and use it to send the ball in the initial take-off direction, then point the clubface where you want the ball to finish. If you cannot send the ball in a desired direction then don't bother with shaping, sort that one out first.

yeah, i agree to a certain extent. Although i would say that learning shaping is one of the best ways to balance out or neutralise your swing. I coach a kid who is 14, off a 1 handicap (and shot a 66 the other day). the kid is a real talent, plays a big draw with a very in to out swing (im talking 45 degrees). for him to hit a fade, if he used the 'aim body left, aim clubface right' rule he would hit a straight block or small high draw (thats correct, a draw). even when he aims his body left, his divot can point right of the target, unless he aims more than 45 degrees left, but then the face has to be so open he cannot get any sidespin on it at all, so its virtually impossible for him, with his old swing, to hit a fade.

however, ironically, the answer for him has been to learn the fade. I set him up with a neutral stance, stick a pole 20 feet in front of him and tell him to start the ball left of the pole and fade it back. He uses his divot as exytra feedback, and i coach him through where his swingpath is. as a result he is much less under plane on the downswing - all through instinctive methods, no technical information. he can now hit a fade comfortably, even when aiming his body right slightly (like tiger woods used to do in 2001-2002).

for me - it always comes back to divot and clubface relationship to the divot. however you acheive it, there are advatntages and disadvantages to each way. Some players prefer to change their swingpath via conscious efffort, others just aim their body differently. each to their own

[keiko]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

There are lots of ways and Jack's obviously works. Also, one can weaken or strengthen the grip, open or close the alignment, swing more in to out or out to in, move the ball forward or back, hold the release or release more, etc..ad nauseaum.

Hi guys

I've just watched an interesting clip on YouTube, it was the great Jack Nicklaus explaining how he would shape either a fade or draw shot. He would either open the club face for a fade, and close it for a draw. Not once did he mention opening or closing his stance at address. I'm guessing he's using the club face set-up to shape his shots as opposed to his alignment.

As a high handicapper, it does seem to me an easier way, just wondering other peoples thoughts on this.

Nige

[bill reed]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

hi
if you watch Jack when he hits a fade he does seem to open his stance just a little but when he hits a draw you don't see him close his stance as much.
I also agree with Keiko about using your grip to change the shape of your shot.
i think you have to understand why changing your grip works just like understanding that opening your stance will not give you a fade you also need the club face allined to the target to give you a fade.
some people have really good hands and wrists and great timing and can fade and draw by using there hands.
cheers
Bill

[keiko]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

When I was training for the US Open years ago, my coach would stand behind me and when I was midway through my swing, he would yell"fade, or draw, or straight and I would try to hit that shot. Good practice and it shows one doesn't have to put alot of thought into it if you have something that works.
My advice is to get your fundamentals in concrete then work on working the ball. Too many try working the ball without good fundamentals.

hi
if you watch Jack when he hits a fade he does seem to open his stance just a little but when he hits a draw you don't see him close his stance as much.
I also agree with Keiko about using your grip to change the shape of your shot.
i think you have to understand why changing your grip works just like understanding that opening your stance will not give you a fade you also need the club face allined to the target to give you a fade.
some people have really good hands and wrists and great timing and can fade and draw by using there hands.
cheers
Bill

[bill reed]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

When I was training for the US Open years ago, my coach would stand behind me and when I was midway through my swing, he would yell"fade, or draw, or straight and I would try to hit that shot. Good practice and it shows one doesn't have to put alot of thought into it if you have something that works.
My advice is to get your fundamentals in concrete then work on working the ball. Too many try working the ball without good fundamentals.

Hi Keilo
i have tried thinking the shot and not really changing my swing but using my mind to hit a fade or a draw. i always found it easer hitting a fade as a draw would not always go where i wanted, lol
i never had really good hands so thats what i have a strong grip and play Trevino style most of my golfing life.
i did play for about 8 years with mostly a draw and i hit longer and got down to 4 handicap but damage to my spine had me going back to my Trevino swing.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Strengthening and weakening the grip is the same as pointing the face right or left with a neutral grip. Opening or closing the stance is only setting the initial direction. Holding off the release or using active wrists only works to open or close the clubface.

It all comes down to the physics of what creates sidespin.

[bill reed]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Strengthening and weakening the grip is the same as pointing the face right or left with a neutral grip. Opening or closing the stance is only setting the initial direction. Holding off the release or using active wrists only works to open or close the clubface.

It all comes down to the physics of what creates sidespin.

Hi Brian
what i was trying to say was that if your hitting a draw then weakning your grip helps the wrists and hands get more active and helps the club face in comming in open to squar to closed.
if playing a fade then having a strong grip gives you less wrist action and helps keep the club face open through impact with it not closing till well after the ball is played.
opening the stance helps if you have a hip sway on the downswing as it helps get your left hip out the way.
with the draw there is not so much hip sway and it more turning of the hips and use of the hands and wrists as i see it.
cheers
Bill

[keiko]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Are you being condensending, attempting to express superiority or just hijacking my post?
No matter what I post, you always seem to have some overriding comment to discredit it.
I am quitting this stupid site, I am just about fed up with you and lagrosa and your assinine ideas.

Strengthening and weakening the grip is the same as pointing the face right or left with a neutral grip. Opening or closing the stance is only setting the initial direction. Holding off the release or using active wrists only works to open or close the clubface.

It all comes down to the physics of what creates sidespin.

[BrianW]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Are you being condensending, attempting to express superiority or just hijacking my post?
No matter what I post, you always seem to have some overriding comment to discredit it.
I am quitting this stupid site, I am just about fed up with you and lagrosa and your assinine ideas.

I was simply making some opinions on the subject matter under discussion, I did not think it your personal subject as we were discussing it before you joined in. My points were directed to all those posting in the thread and you have read this completely out of context. If I had a specific issue with you (which I dont) I would have PM'd you with it, I do have some strongly considered views on golf swing matters but do not need to resort to 'asinine' personal comments when someone disagrees with me.

[rogue]

Re: Fade & Draw Jack's way

Are you being condensending, attempting to express superiority or just hijacking my post?
No matter what I post, you always seem to have some overriding comment to discredit it.
I am quitting this stupid site, I am just about fed up with you and lagrosa and your assinine ideas.

grow some balls.