cure for arms swing

[keiko]

turning with the chest and allowing the arms to go along for the ride will provide a one piece backswing while taking the arms out of the equation. Too many faults can be attributed to dominant arms in the swing. Learn to have passive arms will allow wrists to be active and lag will be the natural outcome.
Same on downswing, just allow the right elbow to drop to the right hip area while keeping the arms passive.
Start with 1/4 swings, then 1/2 swings with feet together then move up to normal stance and swing.

[Sparky08]

Re: cure for arms swing

I hear what you are saying, Steven Anderson in his book designed for lefties says something similar. He calls it the triangle and uses the image of shaking hands halfway back. Problem is, when I do this I take the shaft below the shaft plane and because I don't set the club very well I end up so flat at the top with a closed clubface.

I really want to use more body in the swing but when I tee it up this weekend I know it will be back to my steep hands and arm swing which is great for my game from 140 yds in but means I have to fight like hell to get it off the tee.

Any advice much appreciated.

[BrianW]

Re: cure for arms swing

Your problem is not because you're swinging your arms, but because you're not swinging them correctly. All golf swings must have an arm swing. In fact, without the arms you can't swing the golf club! It sounds like you may be using multiple parts of various swing methods, which work together like oil and water.

It's very important to know what swing method you use. I assume you may be attempting to use a body/torso rotary type swing in lieu of an arm swing because of what you said. Depending on your swing method it's important to know how you think your left arm is supposed bring the golf club down into impact. Do you know?

Think about your swing and you'll probably pick out one or more of the following things you do [incorrectly], which leads you to believe your problem is an "arms swing":

Tight hands and arms
Tight shoulders
Minimal shoulder turn
Dipping shoulders instead of turning on backswing
Anxiousness to hit ball
Quick transition into downswing
First move in downswing is a right shoulder heave
Weight shift on downswing that is forced and not natural
Steep swing plane
Best part of game is lofted clubs
Prefer teed-up shots, fluffy lies and ball above feet lies
Don't like tight lies
Inconsistent divots
Glancing blow contact, rarely flush
Crisp iron shots are rare
Dead, thuggish hand action through impact
No extension through impact and follow-through
V shaped downswing with little arc width
Right hand breaks down left wrist - flipping is common
Inconsistent distance control
Inconsistent accuracy
Poor distance for the amount of effort

Are any of the above things common for you?

#

Hi Go Low,

It's great to see you back on the site. I have missed your input and golfing knowledge.

[BrianW]

Re: cure for arms swing

Brian,

It appears most everyone has lockjaw...or whatever the equivalent is on a forum. It's hard to believe there's so little activity...

I wouldn't mind helping some people with their golf swing as my time permits. Or, it's always fun (and interesting) to discuss various swing methods, or some particular part of the golf swing.

I'll look in every once in a while to see if there's much activity where I might be of help.

Traffic tends to be varied and the site was down for a few weeks recently, hopefully it will pick up a bit now.

Thanks as ever for your input.

[Wil]

Re: cure for arms swing

Maybe you should take a look at this Leslie King 'left arm' swing before going to a pure body swing. (Found it on this site just a few days ago looking for a "Perfect Golf Swing" on my browser; imagine my surprise when the familiar GTO 'lawn' popped up!)
Never heard of Leslie King until now but used something like his left arm swing back in the 70's and it worked VERY well for me. Everyone was talking body swing back then so I changed.
Don't overlook this guy-his rationale makes a lot of sense and will likely avoid a lot of sore backs as well-mine still hurts like hell from golfing a few days ago!
I'm going to give Leslie's lessons a try today. Is anyone else using it?
...Wil

[Wil]

Re: cure for arms swing

Yup, you're right 'Go Low'; that Leslie King "arm swing" still works (after all those years using a body swing) and seems to work quite well despite a sore back from overuse of the body swing earlier and still wanting to rotate my shoulders a bit-got to work on that! Balls go nice and straight and reasonably long.
OK guys, call me stupid but I'm going back to it! Sick and tired of playing from the rough and trees while nursing a sore back all the time.
TO HELL WITH IT, AFTER 40 YEARS I'M CHANGING BACK (no pun intended) !!!!
...Wil (over in Canada)

[Golfcoach1]

Re: cure for arms swing

Take a stance facing an imaginary target line. Now, make an underhand sidearm toss to throw a ball toward the target along the target line. Now repeat and ask yourself if you used your torso to swing your arm or if you swung your arm and the torso responded.

Doing this exercise two-handed using a larger ball (e.g. basketball) again observe the arm/torso action. Again you will find that the arms toss the ball and the torso responds.

Its the same sequence in a golf swing.

[Golfcoach1]

Re: cure for arms swing

In the preceding reply GO LOW refers to the "lead arm". If you do the basketball drill I mention above, I think you will conclude that it is probably not helpful to think about one of your arms as leading. The basketball drill makes it easy to understand that both arms work in tandem and that neither is dominant and that it is probably not helpful to think of either of them as leading or trailing.

[rogue]

Re: cure for arms swing

Im sorry, are we advocating a 'no lower body motion' swing here? One where the sequence doesnt involve a slight lateral shift toward sthe target and the a rotation?

Could you please show me a video of a professional doing this so I can undestand what you mean

[Wil]

Re: cure for arms swing

Lateral shift yes but anything that causes the shoulders to turn too much on the downswing seems to be certain death! Rotate those hips and the shoulders are sure to follow. For years "Golf My Way" by Jack was my bible; also Jim McLean instruction and others but now I'm not so sure. Swinging with those big back muscles usually over turns the shoulders prematurely and then it's so easy (and natural) to simply throw the club over the top. I'm starting to think us wannabee golfers have been fed a crock and therefore misled for a long time now-we need something simpler and more bulletproof so we can build accuracy, consistency and confidence and then start actually enjoying the game instead of continually becoming more and more pissed off! What's wrong with a simple arm swing? JMO.....Wil

[rogue]

Re: cure for arms swing

Lateral shift yes but anything that causes the shoulders to turn too much on the downswing seems to be certain death!For years "Golf My Way" by Jack was my bible; also Jim McLean instruction and others but now I'm not so sure. Swinging with those big back muscles usually over turns the shoulders prematurely and then it's so easy (and natural) to simply throw the club over the top. I'm starting to think us wannabee golfers have been fed a crock and therefore misled for a long time now-we need something simpler and more bulletproof so we can build accuracy, consistency and confidence and then start actually enjoying the game instead of continually becoming more and more pissed off!What's wrong with a simple arm swing? JMO.....Wil

Nothings wrong with it in my opinion. its not exaclty the correct sequence that all professionals use but the average joe doesnt have anywhere near the amount of flexibility required to do the correct sequence. Jim Mcleans theories have long been out the window - Just because the pro's do something doesnt mean that if an amateur does it they will have the same results. A pro has a lot of hip/shoulder separation because they are highly flexible and that is the most efficient way for THEM to create power. To try and imitate without the flexibility is disastrous - so yes, you have been fed a load of crock.

But there are many many ways to get the club to apprach from the inside, some are much more technically correct than others. but hell - as long as the club is doing the right thing consistently you can play great golf

[kbp]

Re: cure for arms swing

GO LOW did not say "NO lower body motion". He said the lower body should not START the downswing. IMO, this is true in the best swings.

It APPEARS that good swings are started by the lower body, from the ground up, but in reality the best are started in the core. The hip bump you see is not a push off the ground with the foot. It is a contraction of the right side and right lower back muscles which bend the spine. The upper and lower body respond. Anthony Kim, Rory McAlroy, Bubba Watson, many others.

Players may FEEL like they’re pushing off or FEEL like they’re starting from the ground up, and some probably are, but those that have the really good move are likely working from the core outward, IMO.

Most average Joe’s can make the correct move. It does not require this mythical "Tour" flexibility or coordination nor does it require 24/7 practice to keep things "timed" or whatever.

[rogue]

Re: cure for arms swing

GO LOW did not say "NO lower body motion". He said the lower body should not START the downswing. IMO, this is true in the best swings.

It APPEARS that good swings are started by the lower body, from the ground up, but in reality the best are started in the core. The hip bump you see is not a push off the ground with the foot. It is a contraction of the right side and right lower back muscles which bend the spine. The upper and lower body respond. Anthony Kim, Rory McAlroy, Bubba Watson, many others.

Players may FEEL like they’re pushing off or FEEL like they’re starting from the ground up, and some probably are, but those that have the really good move are likely working from the core outward, IMO.

Most average Joe’s can make the correct move. It does not require this mythical "Tour" flexibility or coordination nor does it require 24/7 practice to keep things "timed" or whatever.

I'm intrigued. Do you have any visuals of this? I cant really tell the difference in what you are saying really? Sure the core is activated in the downswing. As the hips move left and rotate at the same time - the core muscles have to be activated. The left oblique muscle pulls the body around as is shown in cochran and stobbs studies with EMG. But as the left side muscles (left oblique and lat) contract the right side muscles relax - just because they are physically contracting doesnt mean they are activated.

Take a look at the left obliques of a pro golfer, it will stick out more than the right side for sure as does a shot putters or a discus throwers or baseball batters.

I agree with what you say about the feeling in the core in the swing - i sure feel it but for me it happens maybe more halfway down as my upper torso catches up with my lower body and is able to apply more force. When its at its max stretch point it cannot create max force so at the top of the swing you cannot creat max force with your core.

[kbp]

Re: cure for arms swing

The contractions I’m talking about are in transition, early, starting the downswing. They are the right side and the right lower back muscles acting in the vertical direction, pulling the bottom of right rib cage closer to the top right side hip and right side butt. You will see lateral bending in the mid-section, (left hip bump), and/or maybe a slight lifting of the right heel. You have the right shoulder being pulled/held back and lowered by the same contraction which is driving the hip bump. It is also maintaining the natural lower back curve to resist the over the top move.

A true ground up, push off only move without this contraction will just slide the whole body to the left, or jut the hips out to the ball losing the spine angle, or force the upper body over the top. Without the right side contractions, it’s very difficult to hold the shoulder lag.

Two animations of AK and Rory showing the contraction. The two feet are Jame Sandlowski showing he is actually LIFTING his right heel (with the midsection contraction) rather than pushing off.

[rogue]

Re: cure for arms swing

The contractions I’m talking about are in transition, early, starting the downswing. They are the right side and the right lower back muscles acting in the vertical direction, pulling the bottom of right rib cage closer to the top right side hip and right side butt. You will see lateral bending in the mid-section, (left hip bump), and/or maybe a slight lifting of the right heel. You have the right shoulder being pulled/held back and lowered by the same contraction which is driving the hip bump. It is also maintaining the natural lower back curve to resist the over the top move.

A true ground up, push off only move without this contraction will just slide the whole body to the left, or jut the hips out to the ball losing the spine angle, or force the upper body over the top. Without the right side contractions, it’s very difficult to hold the shoulder lag.

Two animations of AK and Rory showing the contraction. The two feet are Jame Sandlowski showing he is actually LIFTING his right heel (with the midsection contraction) rather than pushing off.

Yeah ok. So basically its a mix of both although some are saying only the contraction that you are talking about first. I would say i feel both happening at the same time - but only iif you were to ask me to be aware of it. To be honest - if you cant do it naturally its almost worthless analysing it. All the best players in the world have not had to work hard on their sequences. Long before K vests and 3D capture players like hogan just hit balls. Our bodies are designed to find the correct sequence (I use design in the darwinian sense).

I do agree that without the right side compression an over the top move will probably happen. I usually find that working on path with players (too obviously simple for most techno junkies) will get this desired right side compression instinctively.

I dunno, Its like explaining a biomechanical analysis of how to walk to a 2 year old