What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

[Go Low]

Posts by Go Low in this thread have been deleted.

Go Low

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Great post. Personally I have tried lots of methods when I first started But i have given up on them as When you see the holistic view in golf you reaslise on method is a stupid idea. Sure it's not bad to try when u first start but everyone is different. Te human body will find the most efficient way for itself to do a certain task (i know this can be argued - go ahead) its just for most of us the task is not clearly defined - I.E swing it better rather than control the ball.

A one plane swing is ludicrous idea for a human - sure iron byron can do it - but look at the design of it, its nothing like a human body. And its all about trade offs. To get a true one plane swing you would have to have your spine over at such an angle that the human body would not funcion correctly so it may look one plane but wouldnt be very functional. And anyway,w hat the hell is the advanatge of a one plane swing - more consistency sure but at a loss of distance. A lot of the centifugal force in a golf swing comes from going off plane (imagine a speed boat with a water skiier behind them. The water skier going in a straight line (one plane) may be constant but the water skier being flung around off plane by the boat (two plane) is going to create more centrifugal force and more speed).

Personally i am a little left sided as a result that i lose my lag in the downswing. i do this because I lose my posture angles in the dowsnwng causing a pelvic hip thrust towards the ball. Being left sided (and ball position more back) allows me to strike the ball first even with my loss of lag. I lose my posture angles because I have poor rotor cuff flexibility which means i have to starighten my spine angle to drop onto plane as my arm will not drop behind me.

What I am trying to say is that my swing is a bag of compensations that havent been consciously made, my body has found out the best way for me to hit the ball and this is it. Sure i could work on the root cause of my rotor cuff flexibility but then i would have to relearn everything. But i hit the ball about 260-270 yards, 85% of fairways, 80% of greens and average distance from hole of 25 feet. My main problem is putting - average 33.2 per round but I have no time to work on it.

I am definitely a swinger of the golf club as most good players are. But the flexibility in the spine required is phenominal. Most older golfers have no chance and severely ruin their chances by trying to become one - just let your body do what it does naturally.

With reagrds the torso and arms - i am very much an arms swinger, my arm bends a lot at the top and goes behind my body. But you cant argue with the results. I have tried to fix but it ruins my rhythm and it will only make me theoretically better anyway.

My downswing sequence is a bottom up as all good players. Although i think most poeple getthis wrong as a result of swing path issues. You cannot learn this move - it can only be drawn out from us. What i mean by this is that everyone can do this move - it is evolutionarily learned just like a cat doesnt have to understand how to land upright, it is its instinct. To try and learn the sequnce by breaking it down is a futile apporach as is show when poeple use the K vest to learn sequence. Great analysis, uselss for practical.

As for the last question, i can give you an answer but i wont becuase i am not aware of it in reality. As i said, i let my body go on autopilot and it will find the best way for me. I dont have a problem with people using one method or another when they start golf. But to go so in depth into one is silly. They will only find out that their body is not capable of doing all of it or some of it. And even when they get that method down they still have to rely on their skill of getting the clubface through impact correctly - trust me this is a skill.

The most important part of the golf swing is impact. You can give a pro any method (as stack and tilt showed) and they will stilll fid their way to a great imapct as this is the most ingrained part of ANY PERSONS GOLF SWING. The best way to improve a player is to improve their understanding and skills at impact - clubface control, path control, divot position etc. Once that is ingrained the player will be great, and their body will have found their own way to do it

Pretty out there stuff i know but - what do you think? good and bad points im ready to hear

[BrianW]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

To answer the OP I have liked to experement with different swings and have tried most. Two plane, One plane, Moe Norman, Leslie King, Joe Dante, 3 Skills etc.

I have settled on what I guess is a hybrid swing as my standard, this is what is probably referred to as a modern swing as used by most touring pros these days. My left arm tends to be fairly parallel to my shoulder plane at the top.

My downswing is driven by my lower body. I generate a pronounced pause at the top with with my upper body as my hips start to turn back, my left buttock starts to pull back level with my right as my left knee moves over my left foot, this allows my hands to drop down near my right thigh as I start pivoting around my left heel and my right knee pushes in towards my left. I swing through with good extension of the arms so that I am generating a wide swing arc that pulls my hands up high above my left shoulder before falling back to the side of my head.

A comment to 'Rogue' : A one plane swing is only a general description not something to be taken literally. The idea is that the club is swung so that it remains fairly parallel to the shoulder plane, in a 'Two plane swing' the club is taken up on a more vertical plane at the top then dropped back nearer the address plane in the downswing.

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

A comment to 'Rogue' : A one plane swing is only a general description not something to be taken literally. The idea is that the club is swung so that it remains fairly parallel to the shoulder plane, in a 'Two plane swing' the club is taken up on a more vertical plane at the top then dropped back nearer the address plane in the downswing.

Hi Brian, I was aware of what a one plane swing is. My point being is that if a true one plane swing is not acheiveable then why buy into it. In essence most players are two plane, just depends how much.

If you draw a line from the heel of the club to the hands at impact of a good player (who is getting their club flush to the ground at impact) this is a great plane line to go for. Almost every top pro I have analysed (not personally, I just ahve a lot of their swings on my computer) Hit this line with both hands and club on the way down relatively early - tiger in 2001 was a great example of this. I buy into this as a theory of a one plane downswing - the earlier you can get on the line the better - for conistency.

[BrianW]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Brian, I was aware of what a one plane swing is. My point being is that if a true one plane swing is not acheiveable then why buy into it. In essence most players are two plane, just depends how much.

If you draw a line from the heel of the club to the hands at impact of a good player (who is getting their club flush to the ground at impact) this is a great plane line to go for. Almost every top pro I have analysed (not personally, I just ahve a lot of their swings on my computer) Hit this line with both hands and club on the way down relatively early - tiger in 2001 was a great example of this. I buy into this as a theory of a one plane downswing - the earlier you can get on the line the better - for conistency.

I agree. I would say though that if you can keep the plane angle of the club Parallel to the address plane at the top then it is a simpler action to to return it at impact. Taking the club back steeply at the top and having to maneuver it back to a much shallower plane at impact requires more manipulation. I know many good players do this, Furyk being a prime example with his large swing loop, it is not an efficient swing though.

I am not a pure one plane swinger but use more of a Hogan style which is a hybrid of a one plane and two plane. I like his analogy of the sheet of glass from the ball and passing over his shoulders, keeping the club inside the glass plane.

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

I agree. I would say though that if you can keep the plane angle of the club Parallel to the address plane at the top then it is a simpler action to to return it at impact. Taking the club back steeply at the top and having to maneuver it back to a much shallower plane at impact requires more manipulation. I know many good players do this, Furyk being a prime example with his large swing loop, it is not an efficient swing though.

I am not a pure one plane swinger but use more of a Hogan style which is a hybrid of a one plane and two plane. I like his analogy of the sheet of glass from the ball and passing over his shoulders, keeping the club inside the glass plane.

Yeah. The line from the shaft at address is a Leadbetter thing and it's ok but i prefer to use the other variation of getting the club into the correct position at impact first (dynamically fit) and then working back from there. It doesnt take long, a few slides of tape underneath the club, video until you hit the middle (unless your clubs have already been dynamically fit for you) and then work out the plane from there. Normally if you analyse the pro's they get on this line very early and drive the hands and club down this line until impact.

But i dont teach plane directly. I find the hammer nd nail drill works amazingly for plane. And path is the biggest determinant of plane. Sure if someone is way off i would suggest it, but lots of top pros are off on the way back

And I dont wish to use furyk as a prime example as he is cliche now - but it goes to show when you look at the top pros. How we swing the club is not just a function of physics. We have all sorts of factors determining our swing - our subconscious motor programmes being the biggest (otherwise called msucle memory - and i deplore anyone who disregards muscle memory as non existent)

[Golfcoach1]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

There is no method that is as thoroughly documented and has been used as many years as that taught by Manuel de la Torre. It is comprised of three components: setting up correctly (i.e. balanced grip, weight evenly balanced, body centered on golf club), creating a swinging motion with the club (i.e. the butt end of the grip and the head of the club move in the same direction at the same time with constant acceleration), and the club is swung in the direction of the target (i.e. the shaft of the club tracks the target line). His book and dvd offer further explanation. Find more on Wikipedia.

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

I agree that to conserve angular momentum it would be better to have the center point make as little movement as possible. But in the golf swing we have to create the momentum in the first place.

you will notice in professionals that the conservation is during the bottom part of the swing - when the pros arms reach about chest high down and back trhough in the follow through. The chest and body pivot points remain pretty stable or show a slight reversing against the flow of force (tigers body backs away from the target through imapact with a driver just as your analogy of a hand swinigng the weight - the hand would move in tight circles offosing the flow of the weight and creating centrifugal force).

Its very similar to a hammer throw technique - only difference is with the hammer throw and weight on a string analogy the weight is already in motion. With a golf club we have to put the club in motion. Going off the plane and dropping onto it can create some extra 'whip'. Dont take my word for it. Look at the video of a baseball batter. See what you think

The baseballers drop the club onto the horizontal plane and then drive it through from there - obeying your ideas of COAM. However, in order to get the whole chain going in the first place, they actually use the fact that they are not starting on plane (they hold the baseball bat high in the air, way above the plane they are going to drop it onto). Same thing with the hammer throw. They fling the ball off plane to get the whoole thing started, then they build up that centrifugal force.

But really, a few million years of evolution should give us an instinctive understanding of how to create the forces necessary. A player is rarely off plane. What i mean by this is a player is usually on plane in terms of their energy is being directed on a consistent path, it is just usually left or right of the ideal path. I find working on the path works very well for improving plane.

My basic position is that none of it is innately right or wrong. There are many ways to do the same thing and its all about the advantages and disadvantages of some moveemnts.

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Simply allowing gravity to lower the arms does a very nice job.

yep. I agree.

[bill reed]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Brian, I was aware of what a one plane swing is. My point being is that if a true one plane swing is not acheiveable then why buy into it. In essence most players are two plane, just depends how much.

If you draw a line from the heel of the club to the hands at impact of a good player (who is getting their club flush to the ground at impact) this is a great plane line to go for. Almost every top pro I have analysed (not personally, I just ahve a lot of their swings on my computer) Hit this line with both hands and club on the way down relatively early - tiger in 2001 was a great example of this. I buy into this as a theory of a one plane downswing - the earlier you can get on the line the better - for conistency.

Hi Rogue
do you not think Moe Norman had one plane swing, he had his clubs all 3% upright so his arms pointed down the shafts so he was on plane.
i don't think there is another top player with a real one plane swing other than Moe.
Cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Rogue
do you not think Moe Norman had one plane swing, he had his clubs all 3% upright so his arms pointed down the shafts so he was on plane.
i don't think there is another top player with a real one plane swing other than Moe.
Cheers
Bill

Yeah, ur right, Moe was very one plane, and a great player. He didnt hit it very long though and its a bit of a pain getting ur clubs made so many degrees flatter. Most players will still hit it like **** even if they swing it one plane. I was talking more in the region of mike bender one plane - where he gets the plane 90 degrees to the spine angle in theory. No one should attempt this.

[bill reed]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Rogue
i changed my clubs to 2 % flatter a couple of years ago and they seemed to help me flatten my swing and its now much more a one plane swing. before it was a two plane swing with the backswing a diffrent plane "higher" than the downswing. now there much closer to each other.
i do swing diffrently to most other golfers with my Lee Trevino open stance swing. with my swing its more of a push shot where you do not let the arms cross over till well after impact and that kind of open swing means you have a type of push shot and work down the line with you swing aim. it does work really well, but like Moe's swing you lose some distance but put it on the fairway more.
i have also study Mindy Blake's swing and its very like Trevino's but the downswing is more a reaction to the backswing. get the backswing right with Mindy's system and the rest takes care of its self.
Cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Yeah, I am a very closed face player and open up/little chicken wing through impact. Due to my lack of release i hit the ball very very straight - 85% of fairways and greens with 25 foot average proximity from pin. I prefer the less release type swings, moe seems one oft hese. However i am a two plane swinger. I actually take it outside the line on the way back and drop it back onto plane on way down. Cant argue with the consistency though. All i work on is clubface and path control

[bill reed]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Rogue
i think its all about finding the right type of swing that works for you and then fine tuning it. working with a swing you know "Good and bad point" can help you find a way to enjoy playing even when having a bad day.
about 15 years ago i changed to a draw swing and could hit long but never with any control of the ball. my back went about 7 years ago and i went back to my Trevino swing. now with my open stance swing i have that control but lost about 15/20 yards with the driver and about 10 yards with each club. but i find it a better day out now playing on the fairway and not in the deep stuff.
Cheers
Bill

[rogue]

Re: What Swing Method Do You Guys Use?

Hi Rogue
i think its all about finding the right type of swing that works for you and then fine tuning it. working with a swing you know "Good and bad point" can help you find a way to enjoy playing even when having a bad day.
about 15 years ago i changed to a draw swing and could hit long but never with any control of the ball. my back went about 7 years ago and i went back to my Trevino swing. now with my open stance swing i have that control but lost about 15/20 yards with the driver and about 10 yards with each club. but i find it a better day out now playing on the fairway and not in the deep stuff.
Cheers
Bill

Agreed. I would class the fine tuning as working on the impact laws within the confines of your technique. Working on clubface control, centredness of strike, divot pattern and loft and experimenting with all, not only make you a real PLAYER, but increases your ability to find the optimum for all. I regularly practice fades and draws and as a result am not only straighter, but i can fix it very fast if it goes wrong.