Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

[Go Low]

Posts by Go Low in this thread have been deleted.

Go Low

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

lol, I had a massive debate with keiko on this one. He refused to see that tour pro males have a decending angle of attack with a driver - even when i showed him the same graph you have here. He assumed that a decending angle of attack guarantees a slice whereas i told him thats nonsense.

Its interesting stuff though

[BrianW]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Bubba Watson is always at the top of the pros driver distance and uses a + AOA. I know many pros use a - angle but that does not mean they are getting optimum results, they do tend to have their clubs fitted to give the best results for their swing.

Slicing is not directly related to this but if someone is hitting down with their driver then they will create more ball spin, if the balls axis or rotation is not level then this will increase the effects of ball curvature

Here is a link to some data and an article from Tom Wishon on this:

http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittinga...ole-in-fitting

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Bubba Watson is always at the top of the pros driver distance and uses a + AAO. I know many pros use a - angle but that does not mean they are getting optimum results, they do tend to have their clubs fitted to give the best results for their swing.

Here is a link to some data and an article from Tom Wishon on this:

http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittinga...ole-in-fitting

Depends what you mean by results. If driving distance is the only thing concerned then sure, a +AOA would be the most benficial. But distance is not everything. The dynamics involved in a professionals golf swing that creat power safely and efficiently preferably give a negative angle of attack. There may be several benefits to this AOA over a positive one. Im not saying a positive AOA is wrong or that I wouldnt teach it if thats what players wanted, but you have to see the whole picture

[BrianW]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Depends what you mean by results. If driving distance is the only thing concerned then sure, a +AOA would be the most benficial. But distance is not everything. The dynamics involved in a professionals golf swing that creat power safely and efficiently preferably give a negative angle of attack. There may be several benefits to this AOA over a positive one. Im not saying a positive AOA is wrong or that I wouldnt teach it if thats what players wanted, but you have to see the whole picture

By results I mean longer drives for the well struck ball and less deviation for the obliquely struck one. I dont see how a - AOA would create a 'safer' drive with a Driver. It will create more spin and less carry, this is desirable with shorter clubs and a product of the club design (loft). Lesser skilled golfers would probably have more problems with the higher spin rates which would rob them of distance and create more flightpath deviation.

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

By results I mean longer drives for the well struck ball and less deviation for the obliquely struck one. I dont see how a - AOA would create a 'safer' drive with a Driver. It will create more spin and less carry, this is desirable with shorter clubs and a product of the club design (loft). Lesser skilled golfers would probably have more problems with the higher spin rates which would rob them of distance and create more flightpath deviation.

If a decending angle of attack creates more backspin (which it does all other things being equal) then the ball will actually deviate LESS. Backspin will counteract sidespin and it is SIDESPIN that causes a ball to go offline.

To put simply, a ball with more backspin goes straighter - So the claim that hitting with a more ascending AOA creates a straighter ball on oblique hits is not correct.

However that is besides the point because things do not work in isolation. You can see the stats say that even though the males and females have diff AOA the spin rates with the driver are the same.

[BrianW]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

If a decending angle of attack creates more backspin (which it does all other things being equal) then the ball will actually deviate LESS. Backspin will counteract sidespin and it is SIDESPIN that causes a ball to go offline.

To put simply, a ball with more backspin goes straighter - So the claim that hitting with a more ascending AOA creates a straighter ball on oblique hits is not correct.

However that is besides the point because things do not work in isolation. You can see the stats say that even though the males and females have diff AOA the spin rates with the driver are the same.

A golf ball can have only one axis of rotation, not two. It is impossible to have back and sidespin as separate forces. The balls direction is initially affected by the velocity of the force direction, backspin is created around this axis and if tilted one way or the other will bend the ball flight in that direction. The only reason this is less pronounced on shorter clubs is that the ball flight is shorter.

The attached shows how ball flight is affected by force and spin axis.

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Yes- you are 100 % correct with what u just said in regards a ball can only have one axis of rotation. I was using the old 'backspin reduces sidespin' quote as more of an easy to understand analogy rather than having to go through the more appropritate one axis route which lots of people wouldnt understand.

The statement still holds true however. I will explian it further using the axis route

A ball that has more backwards rotational force will tilt the axis of any sideways force.

Its basically the same thing though, the more backspin the less sidespin


ok an example. If you have 2 differetn balls that have been hit obliquely by two different clubfaces. One clubface has loft and the other has none. The face with loft would give more energy to a backward rotation and hence less energy to a sideways rotation (conservation of energy laws) thus MORE BACKSPIN = A TILT IN THE AXIS FAVOURING BACKSPIN MOVEMENT AND NOT SIDESPIN MOVEMENT (sidespin movement causing the offline shots)


And not true about the short club thing. It is much easier to curve a ball with a club that has less loft. Try slicing your wedge for example. It just doesnt happen. That has nothing to do with the flight distance...... I can curl a 5 iron 30 meters right over 100 yards, but try doing the same thing with a wedge. The increase in the tilt of the axis of rotation caused by the extra loft (or difference bewteen angle of attack and dynamic loft to be more precise) just wont allow it to happen

[BrianW]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Yes- you are 100 % correct with what u just said in regards a ball can only have one axis of rotation. I was using the old 'backspin reduces sidespin' quote as more of an easy to understand analogy rather than having to go through the more appropritate one axis route which lots of people wouldnt understand.

The statement still holds true however. I will explian it further using the axis route

A ball that has more backwards rotational force will tilt the axis of any sideways force.

Its basically the same thing though, the more backspin the less sidespin


ok an example. If you have 2 differetn balls that have been hit obliquely by two different clubfaces. One clubface has loft and the other has none. The face with loft would give more energy to a backward rotation and hence less energy to a sideways rotation (conservation of energy laws) thus MORE BACKSPIN = A TILT IN THE AXIS FAVOURING BACKSPIN MOVEMENT AND NOT SIDESPIN MOVEMENT (sidespin movement causing the offline shots)


And not true about the short club thing. It is much easier to curve a ball with a club that has less loft. Try slicing your wedge for example. It just doesnt happen. That has nothing to do with the flight distance...... I can curl a 5 iron 30 meters right over 100 yards, but try doing the same thing with a wedge. The increase in the tilt of the axis of rotation caused by the extra loft (or difference bewteen angle of attack and dynamic loft to be more precise) just wont allow it to happen

I am still not in full agreement. I can shape a ball with a wedge if I want, I just strike it with a shallower angle. Wedges have short shafts and swing on a more upright plane with a smaller swing arc making it more difficult to tilt the rotation axis.

There is not really any sidespin on a golf ball it's rather all backspin with the rotational axis tilted. The initial forward force will overpower the axis tilt and send the ball in a direction between the clubface and swingpath, as the forward momentum reduces the spin (or Magus effect) will start to take over and pull the ball round dependant on it axis tilt. This is why a draw or fade has an initial straight path that falls away later.

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

I am still not in full agreement. I can shape a ball with a wedge if I want, I just strike it with a shallower angle. Wedges have short shafts and swing on a more upright plane with a smaller swing arc making it more difficult to tilt the rotation axis.

There is not really any sidespin on a golf ball it's rather all backspin with the rotational axis tilted. The initial forward force will overpower the axis tilt and send the ball in a direction biased towards the swingpath, as the forward momentum reduces the spin (or Magus effect) will start to take over and pull the ball round dependant on it axis tilt. This is why a draw or fade has an initial straight path that falls away later.

True, it is all backspin But with an angle.

But still, if you increase the downward force on a ball (through an increase in loft or a decrease in the angle of attack) then you change the spin tilt - do you not agree with this???

If you agree with this, then think about which direction that spin tilt will change to - its going to be more verticle. If this happens then its the same as saying there is less sidespin... or do you still think not?

One more small example to help make it clearer. look at the spin rates on the wedges. If your theory that higher spin will have the potential to move the ball more offline then the wdges (according to the trackman data) should be moving the most offline. However the spin has to be taken into context. The wedge with its higher loft produces more verticle spin (backspin) thus limiting the effects of any open or closed face.

Its a good debate and to be honest not all that obvious i understand. And I thank you for raising it as it has made me think of it in a way that has been clearer than before.

[LowPost42]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

An interesting debate fellas.

Can I add that perhaps the reason for a fade flight with a negative AoA is that the face has not necessarily squared to the path yet - resulting in a fade impact (regarding path and face angle)

Whereas with a positive AoA (which can really only be created with a very forward ball position) the path is moving back inside and the face is releasing (unless there's significant manipulation) creating a face that's square-to-closed in regards to path - creating draws, hooks and pulls.

And it's true that lesser loft creates lesser spin - although I wonder how much of it has to do with a more direct strike on the ball and how much has to do with mass (considering your wedge head is almost half as heavy again as your driver) but also considering that ball speed and spin rates are directly proportional; as one increases so does the other.

Let's also not forget gear effect - the modification of spin rates dependent on the vertical point of percussion (above, below, or at the vCoG).

[rogue]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

An interesting debate fellas.

Can I add that perhaps the reason for a fade flight with a negative AoA is that the face has not necessarily squared to the path yet - resulting in a fade impact (regarding path and face angle)

Whereas with a positive AoA (which can really only be created with a very forward ball position) the path is moving back inside and the face is releasing (unless there's significant manipulation) creating a face that's square-to-closed in regards to path - creating draws, hooks and pulls.

And it's true that lesser loft creates lesser spin - although I wonder how much of it has to do with a more direct strike on the ball and how much has to do with mass (considering your wedge head is almost half as heavy again as your driver) but also considering that ball speed and spin rates are directly proportional; as one increases so does the other.

Let's also not forget gear effect - the modification of spin rates dependent on the vertical point of percussion (above, below, or at the vCoG).

Yeah I can see what ur saying. Although it is still possible to hit with a negative angle of attack and hit a drwa, think about drawing an iron shot, its still a decending blow on the ball. Draw spin is created by path and face, not by the angle of attack, although this can influence it.

I would say that club speed and spin rates have a direct correlation, not ball speed and spin rate. If you were to increase the loft of a club the spin rate would increase but ball speed would decrease. Also if you have a look at the trackman data you see as the ball speed increases with a lower club, the spin rate actually decreases. I think what you meant was that if all things were equal, a ball coming off faster would also spin more... Is this right?? or were you thinking something diff.

[LowPost42]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

Yeah I can see what ur saying. Although it is still possible to hit with a negative angle of attack and hit a drwa, think about drawing an iron shot, its still a decending blow on the ball. Draw spin is created by path and face, not by the angle of attack, although this can influence it.

I would say that club speed and spin rates have a direct correlation, not ball speed and spin rate. If you were to increase the loft of a club the spin rate would increase but ball speed would decrease. Also if you have a look at the trackman data you see as the ball speed increases with a lower club, the spin rate actually decreases. I think what you meant was that if all things were equal, a ball coming off faster would also spin more... Is this right?? or were you thinking something diff.

All things being equal, more ball speed for a given launch angle makes more spin.

A shot launched at 14 degrees with a 150 mph ball speed spins less than one launched with 160 mph ball speed given the same loft and AoA.

[BrianW]

Re: Trackman Data: PGA Tour vs. LPGA

The way I consider it is that when using a driver you need a launch angle of around 14 deg to optimise the ball flight for best carry. You can achieve this with a lower lofted club(say 8 deg) making a + AOA which will create better ball compression, less spin, more ball speed and a rainbow shaped flightpath.Or, you can create it by hitting down or at a lower AOA using a higher lofted driver, this will get the ball up but with more spin, less ball speed and a flight path that resembles a hockey stick that drops away rapidly at its apex.