Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Are you absolutely sure that people who just started reading your posts (that might not be familiar with your views) are not confused? Especially when you failed to explain [at all] what you posted?

Do you see anyone else asking? I don't. I think they all get it. If they don't they are (and always have been) welcome to ask. I just think it's beating a dead horse at this point.

We are in agreement...I'm sure. If you mean that it is bad to intentionally sustain the lag by physically (using muscle force) holding the lag, then we agree. It is however my plan or desire to have my golf swing naturally sustain the lag.

No we are not in agreement because of the bolded part.

You see, there are some very important elements of what you believe that are actually at complete odds with each other. You want free hinging wrists but are trying to sustain lag for as long as possible. Those two ideas are mechanically opposite of one another. As I pointed out, the hands must slow down for the clubhead to pass the hands. They either stop abruptly at their lowest point and flail the club around, or they must slowly decrease in speed. Doing the first requires MAJOR muscular effort or a brick wall. Doing the second means LOOSING LAG. In essence, you cannot have your cake (free hinging wrists with 0 torque) and eat it too (sustained lag).

Should you have been more precise and detailed in explaining that sustaining the lag is desireable, just not sustained physically using muscular force to do it? I'll answer that! Such explanation isn't necessary in my opinion, but you see Ringer - I can definitely see you asking me for a more precise explanation.

Quite to the contrary, should we total up the number of questions present to each other I'm quite positive your number would be at least tripple mine.

Not to the extent that you have sought far more precision and correctness to minute detail from me recently, which is unnecessary.

So forget science, understanding, knowledge and wisdom... lets just all swing.

Have you never said something like: wrist cock will increase clubhead speed? No - you didn't, did you!!! And if you did, did you then go into a full and complete detail explanation that a wrist cock is really just part of the lever system and cannot increase speed at all. And further, that the only thing that can "really" produce any clubhead speed in the first place is muscle force. And...and...and...

Seems to me applying torque to the club is what I've been saying. The action of unhinging the wrists with muscular effort is what applies the torque to the club. However in a "free hinge" system then you're assuming 0 torque. I believe you were saying "centrifugal force" would pull the lever assembly into alignment and no muscular effort is requried.

I would argue that there is no "force" acting to pull the club at all and therefor something else must be done to change the condition of the clubface and clubhead.

Being MORE precise! Where does it end Ringer? To what length should it be carried out? Or is it your quest for precision just from me? I certainly hope your students don't need such detailed and precise definitions that 99.999% of people already fully understand.

Like I said, my job is to only give the details necessary to that particular student. With only a basic understanding of the swing you cannot fix the multitude of swing issues that are out there.

I would not try to fix a car only with the knowlege that it has a combustion engine. I need to know all the parts, how they fit, and how they work together.

Nor would I try to fix a broken radiator by trying to retrofit the entire car.

[keiko]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

You must be familiar with "Ringer" on other sites, he likes to be the authority. "my way or the highway"
Most just take him with a grain of salt

Are you absolutely sure that people who just started reading your posts (that might not be familiar with your views) are not confused? Especially when you failed to explain [at all] what you posted?



We are in agreement...I'm sure. If you mean that it is bad to intentionally sustain the lag by physically (using muscle force) holding the lag, then we agree. It is however my plan or desire to have my golf swing naturally sustain the lag.

Should you have been more precise and detailed in explaining that sustaining the lag is desireable, just not sustained physically using muscular force to do it? I'll answer that! Such explanation isn't necessary in my opinion, but you see Ringer - I can definitely see you asking me for a more precise explanation.



What's with the "we"? Have you got a mouse in your pocket?

I only believe in being precise enough so 99.9% of the readers will understand it...nothing to the extent where you have sought far more precision (down to minute correctness) from me recently, which I find totally unnecessary. That said, I don't think you will find anyone on this forum that attempts to explain things in more detail than I do. This is obvious by the length of some of my posts.



Have you never said something like: wrist cock will increase clubhead speed? No - you didn't, did you!!! And if you did, did you then go into a full and complete detail explanation that a wrist cock is really just part of the lever system and cannot increase speed at all. And further, that the only thing that can "really" produce any clubhead speed in the first place is muscle force. And...and...and... Have you ever used the term centrifugal force or centripetal force? Tell me no! Did you explain what centrifugal and centripetal force is...or isn't? Did you share with your student what you told me about NASA and centripetal/centrifugal force?

Being MORE precise! Where does it end Ringer? To what length should it be carried out? Or is it your quest for precision just from me? I certainly hope your students don't need such detailed and precise explanations and definitions that 99.999% of all reasonably intelligent people already understand.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

This subject is very interesting to those that wish to debate and/or consider more about the golf swing and its actions and reactions. I would politely ask that all contributing refrain from any negative personal comments to other posters. It is correct and healthy to question others views, this is constructive debate.

This is not posted as a criticism of any individual, rather an effort on my behalf to keep us all on track.

Thanks in advance.

It doesn't appear that Go Low or keiko read this.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Have fun with your apprenticeship!

What apprenticeship?

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

I was not familiar with Ringer (also RingerDaMan and RingerPro) on other golf related websites. But I see what you're saying now! He's got quite a reputation for his attitude!

I see that he has a very strange habit of asking questions of others (oftentimes it appears to gain knowledge), but then he will purposely argue with them about it.

For a 31 year-old small-time golf apprentice young Mr. Bishop has got a whole lot to learn, both about the golf swing and about life!

I will indeed take him with a grain of salt!

Thanks for the heads-up!

I don't really care if you decide to ignore me, but you've never seen me teach and don't really know anything about me. Frankly when people are tired of trying your way and failing they'll come to me and get fixed. More money for me.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

From what I've seen a lot of people ignore you. Personally, I can understand why!

No Steve, I have never seen you teach. But, I have seen enough of your teaching videos, and your swing philosophy in writing, to know I would not be interested, nor would I come close to recommending you to anyone. It's clear you are having your own difficulties learning the golf swing, much less what you teach to students. It's also clear that you haven't quite "found yourself" yet and are still looking... I truly wish you success on both fronts.

Hahahaha...

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

YouTube - The ultimate golf lesson: P...lease by feel.

Monte Scheinblum video: At 4:15 in the video Monte starts discussing what centrifugal force will do that automatically squares the clubface...and you don't need to do anything to square the clubface.

Hopefully, if there are any golf instructors on here (that are willing to learn), they need to learn this really important information themselves and teach it to their students.

Monte is a previous National and World Long Drive Champion.

It's almost comical that you bring up Monte. Great guy and has a fantastic understanding of the golf swing. Somehow you think he and I disagree. If so, then why did he join my website as a fellow GTBG instructor? That's right, he's a colleague of mine.

What's even more ironic is that Monte has said REPEATEDLY that "holding the lag is wrong".


http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/3450/

http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com...0/07/the-cast/

http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com...charlie-brown/

I don't agree with him on the centrifugal force only because I don't think he's had a real chance to look at the science of it. I don't even really care about it. The whole POINT was the idea of SUSTAINING lag is bad and that we use torque on the club. That has been my premise the entire time. You have not done anything to counter this statement but instead you and keiko resorted to just pointing at other people who talk about centrifugal force (which is really unrelated) and ad-hominem attacks on me and my teaching.

If it weren't so funny it would be sad.

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Maybe a different concept but this is the way my considerations are leading me:

On the basis that there can be no speed where there is not speed I am not comfortable with the concept that relaxed arms will create force in the golf swing. The arms do act as a lever system but something has to power the levers, this can only be the muscles of the arms. The biceps, triceps and forearms will have to compress and expand so they can power the levers and this cannot be done by relaxing them. I can see that gripping tightly with the hands will reduce the range of movement needed in the wrists but I would suggest that the arms need to be extended at address and through impact and the right (or trailing) arm needs to create a throwing motion in the downswing that creates the required force to propel the clubhead through the ball. The release of the clubhead is in fact an underarm throw of the golf grip that is powered mainly by the piston action of the right arm, the rotation of the upper torso does add an amount of momentum to this action and the lower body acts mainly to stabilise the upper body and arms. I would agree that tension in the shoulders and hands will impede this action and inhibit the necessary throwing action.

I would suggest the rotary forces (centripetal or centrifugal) are a symptom of the arm swing rather than the cause and due to the short time frame and distance of the downswing from the top to impact do not contribute a great deal to the forces applied from the clubface to the ball.

When you look at these Long Drive champions they tend to be mainly 6Ft + tall and weigh 200 + pounds, they also have very strong arms.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

Maybe a different concept but this is the way my considerations are leading me:

On the basis that there can be no speed where there is not speed I am not comfortable with the concept that relaxed arms will create force in the golf swing. The arms do act as a lever system but something has to power the levers, this can only be the muscles of the arms. The biceps, triceps and forearms will have to compress and expand so they can power the levers and this cannot be done by relaxing them. I can see that gripping tightly with the hands will reduce the range of movement needed in the wrists but I would suggest that the arms need to be extended at address and through impact and the right (or trailing) arm needs to create a throwing motion in the downswing that creates the required force to propel the clubhead through the ball. The release of the clubhead is in fact an underarm throw of the golf grip that is powered mainly by the piston action of the right arm, the rotation of the upper torso does add an amount of momentum to this action and the lower body acts mainly to stabilise the upper body and arms. I would agree that tension in the shoulders and hands will impede this action and inhibit the necessary throwing action.

I would suggest the rotary forces (centripetal or centrifugal) are a symptom of the arm swing rather than the cause and due to the short time frame and distance of the downswing from the top to impact do not contribute a great deal to the forces applied from the clubface to the ball.

When you look at these Long Drive champions they tend to be mainly 6Ft + tall and weigh 200 + pounds, they also have very strong arms.

Well put Brian as always.

On a bit of a side note, I was thinking about the "guy on the ball".

Wouldn't it be a much better test to have him lying flat on the table? Then he would truly be taking out the pivot and solely be swinging the arms. I don't think he'd hit it 300 yards but I would take back everything I've ever said about the kinetic link if he did.

[Ringer]

Re: Are You Doing Your Backswing Pivot Correctly?

I think my original inclination was right. I need to just ignore. Why do people feel a condescending tone is in any way going to make them "more right"?