Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

[Go Low]

Posts by Go Low in this thread have been deleted.

Go Low

[KrudlerAce]

Interesting

Thanks for the post 'Go Low', very interesting and something worth thinking about.

[kbp]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

Thanks for bringing this topic to the forum. Most golfers at every level do not address the ball with UD, but rather with a neutral alignment of the joint or even radial deviation (RD). Grip strength is also a factor. In going from neutral or RD at address to UD at impact is going to lengthen the distance from the club head to the left shoulder and/or the swing center, depending. Most golfers will also have their hands higher at impact which will increase the shaft angle to the ground, effectively making the club lie angle more toe down. You can also have shaft droop involved and shaft lean.

I learned long ago the impact and address are two different animals, but I would like you to finish the story. What is your approach to reconcile this in your swing and what are some other approaches.

[BrianW]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

And movement not on the plane to the ball is wasted energy. It might help you get on the correct path or compensate for another error, but it adds no power, nor does supination/pronation of the left arm.

To stay on plane at the top of the backswing it is necessary to pronate the hands, otherwise the clubhead will pass outside the shoulder plane at the top. You are correct that anything put into the backswing must be taken back in the downswing to square the clubface, supination is required to do this.

The way the human body is constructed it is not possible to stay on the address plane throughout the swing, this is why Ben Hogan considered the sheet of glass that passes from the ball and over the shoulders. You are also correct that movements off plane are wasted energy but what else can you do? To generate suitable clubhead speed you have to change plane otherwise you will not be able to create a long enough swing.

It is not possible to create, maintain and release lag without the wrists turning, without this action it would only be possible to make a straight chopping action with the club. Pronation and Supination are the most efficient ways of doing this, the alternatives can only be flipping or no release.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

touché.

Fine I will offer some advice. Flipping through impact is more efficient and will result in more distance and more accurate shots. As if you go through impact with your left hand in palmar flex and your right hand in dorsal flex, you swing will only be as fast as your left arm (and a lttle bit of speed can bee gained from a proper tuned shaft) or slower if it doesn't catch up. But if you let it pass the left arm, it can go faster.

I think we both agree that flipping before impact is bad, but flipping throuh impact is good...... unless you are supinating through impact, then it can be quite disaterous, as supinating through impact in itself isn't the greatest idea. Now you are at the mercy of timing. If you don't pronate in the BS, you won't need to supinate in the DS, your club face will always be square, leading to straight shots everytime.

Ulnar deviation is important at adress and that is the only time. If you relax properly your left hand will palmar flex in the BS ans slightly flex in the radial direction. In the DS your left hand does go unto ulnar deviation stays in palmar flexion and then dorsal flexes through impact as your elbow flexes, this giving the appearance in pic as you supinating. When in fact your radius and ulnar bone (which are square with the club face at adress) stay square to the face and swing path the entire swing, and through impact and the follow through. But you note how the follow through swing arc turns in and goes back, if your radius and ulnar bone are to stay on that path, it will appear as they supinate as your inner forearm is now shown to the camera, but there was no suppination at all. Though very few do this, most do supinate through impact, making them subject to timing.

Look at that pic below with hogans wrist again. See how the forearm is following the swing arc makig it appear as if it is supinating. I mean 1 and 2 are clearly pronated and does require supination to get back to square, but if you see the 3-6th pic, it is square to the swing arc.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

You say that if you flip through impact it is more efficient and will result in more distance and more accurate shots! You also suggest having no pronation in the backswing and no supination in the downswing! Is it any wonder why handicap golfers are puzzled and frustrated...and why golf instructors are busy? Have fun with your philosophy!

The reason golfers are puzzled and frustrated is because they are impatient and want everything now without the work. If they actually learned why things are done and how what happend when you do things, and actually work at making what they know is supposed to happen now that they have learned it. Instead of relying on swing thoughts or quick fixes they would be much better off. Also people have problems learning golf that aren't athletic. The large majority of instrucors teach a timing based athletic golf swing that is quite difficult for most, as opposed to an easy natural most efficient aproach.

I wish I came up with this philosophy, am I not that smart though. That philosophy came from a man with a doctorate degree, and a masters in kenesiology and a bachelors in physics and engineering and even years of experience and proof showing he had the most efficient, logest and most accurate swing ever AKA Mike Austin.

I at least gave you a reason as to why letting the clubhead pass the left hand is better and a reason that keeping the clubface and forearm along the swing arc. The 'fliiping' as you call it gives you more distance, and the not twisting of the arms gives you a square clubface, both of these have to do with impact.

But what is you reason for pronating in the BS? Complicating and adding something unnesisary to stay on some plane some guy told you about. And why do you supinate in the DS, only to put back what you took out, and to add the issue of timing to the swing? That doesn't make much sense to me. Or becaue a your obsrevations of a great golfer makes it appear as he is doing this?

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

The arm naturally pronates (rotates or rolls) when it moves to the right in the backswing. The arm naturally supinates (rotates or rolls) when it moves back down into impact and continues supinating into the follow-through.

Stay on plane without pronating and supinating! Please...
Some guy told me about! Haha!
All golf swings require timing - whether innate (natural) or learned!

Most of what you say doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me...and I strongly suspect it doesn't make any sense to most others either!

This doesn't surprise me, you sound quite narrow/close minded.

You might not be able to stay on a plane that some guy spoke of, but why do you want to. Because he happened to be a good golfer? If you move correctly, you won't have to supinate or pronate eliminating the timing to hae a square face. You might vary from this 'plane' that hogan spoke of, but if you require athleticism and timing to stay on this plane why do it? Why not open your mind, try something new that makes sense through logic, and not just some thing that worked for someone else so you take it as gospel.

But the arm doesn't naturally pronate, and this statement shows you have no clue what you are talking about (biomechanically speaking), rather spouting out what other have told you or what you assume to be tru with your own warped logic as opposed to researching actual fact. To pronate or supinate ones arm requires the use of muscles. Not using muscles or relaxing is natural. Had you said in order to stay on hogan's plane one must pronate, that would make sense. But so say you naturally pronate which is absolutely wrong.

If you want to keep believing that it is up to you, but if you went to anyone with any education in the field (not the game of golf but the study of the body in motion), they would laugh in your face if you said that to them with the same arrogance which you seem to have here.

If this doesn't make sense, I would suggest you hit the books a bit and use some critical thinking and actually learn something that is backed up with facts instead of keeping with what others say or have taught or your obviously flawed observations.

If you don't want to use it in your golf swing, that is fine, I don't care, but you can't refute it as not being truth, it is medically sound. oh yea, I forgot to add the obligitory immature emoticons that one uses when they can't give an educational answer with fact to back it up.

[achandl1]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

Go Low,

Thank you for your posts recently. I have been getting better using what I read here from you. Thank you again.

Andy

[adrianrodgers@h]

Re: Are You Using Ulnar Deviation? Or Flipping?

Go Low,

I never write to forums in general - just a lurker.
I also find your articles refreshing & also seem to be helping my golf.

Keep it coming & thank you

Adrian