Continue with open stance or not

[Paraneva]

Hi everybody!

Most of the posts here are probably questions about one's own swing and that is exactly what I am going to start with. The actual question appears after a short introduction, I hope you have time to read it.

I have been playing for 5½ years, started at age of 45 and so the learning curve is not as steep as with the teenagers. During the first full season I had a terrible slice, the next year it was a terrible hook but now for the last two years I have been able to play with slowly improving averages.

The problem is (if it is a problem?) that although I can hit straight with short irons (9, P, S, wedges) with a straight stance I have to open up the stance increasingly with longer clubs - up to 20 degrees or more to hit straight with the driver.

It is not an "opened stance" (with left foot taken back) but a genuinely "open stance" where both my sholders and feet aim clearly left.

And while opening the stance I also open the clubhead so that it is actually aiming to the target.

So effectively I am producing a push (with an increasing angle depending on the length of the club) and compensating that with the open stance.

The good point is that I can hit both draws and fades just by opening the clubhead less or more. My driver is just 9½ so stronger draws tend to be too low (even with the 18 degree 2H) but successful fades can be quite impressive (also with the 24 degree 4H or longer irons). For fades I naturally have to open the stance even more, say up to 40 degrees with driver.

The difficult point is that the difference between a draw, a straight hit and a fade is extremely small and also the angles (in the openess of the stance and the clubhead) must be very precisely correct or the result will be terrible. It is not so easy to estimate the number of degrees without any tool, especially on courses where you have not played earlier. And it is way too easy to continue using open stance with the shorter irons and hit to the left of the green ...

More hints: I use wrists a lot (my hook used to be caused by them), especially with the longer clubs (driver, 2H, 4H). I position the ball close to the left foot with driver and close to the right foot with the short irons. The driver and 2H are stiff, 2H is regular and irons are ... well, irons.

My handicap is below 15 since summer 2009 and even thou I haven't been able to drop it this summer, the average results are going downwards.

I have done some googling and it seems quite common that even good players open their stance for short irons while aiming straight with longer clubs. My problem is the exact opposite and I am quite with it ...

So, is there somebody out there who could explain a) what is happening in my swing and b) whether it is better to change something for the next season during the winter or just relax and play?

All answers are appreciated.

[GregJWillis]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

I suspect a touch of a slide with your longer irons/driver.

As you transfer your weight from the top of the swing to your front foot, there is a tendency to let your whole body shift to the left too, and this moves the center of bottom of your swing arc forward. When you make contact, you are actually hitting the ball as if it was in the back of your stance. And if you are tuned to squaring up the face when you have the ball forward in your stance, then you are going to have an open face (slice / push).

If this seems correct, practice keeping the weight equally distributed over your center more. Even though the ball may be forward in your stance, you still need to stay centered. It will "look" different to you as you enter impact, because you will now see the ball actually "forward", and this will be good. Montra may be something like, "Stay behind the ball".

[keiko]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Your mantra reminds me of mine"turn behind-stay behind" meaning a reminder to myself when I get lazy or too quick, ie. lazy in not pivoting enough to provide torque between upper and lower halfs OR being too anxious to strike the ball that I rush my downswing. Especially on par 5's and long par 4's I have the tendencies mentioned above. I find if I take the extra time to turn behind then as an old teacher once told me"take time to enjoy your swing", and then stay behind the ball at impact, things work out great.
Appreciate your comments.

I suspect a touch of a slide with your longer irons/driver.

As you transfer your weight from the top of the swing to your front foot, there is a tendency to let your whole body shift to the left too, and this moves the center of bottom of your swing arc forward. When you make contact, you are actually hitting the ball as if it was in the back of your stance. And if you are tuned to squaring up the face when you have the ball forward in your stance, then you are going to have an open face (slice / push).

If this seems correct, practice keeping the weight equally distributed over your center more. Even though the ball may be forward in your stance, you still need to stay centered. It will "look" different to you as you enter impact, because you will now see the ball actually "forward", and this will be good. Montra may be something like, "Stay behind the ball".

[bill reed]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

hi
reading what you have to say i think you seem to be playing quite well with an open stance. you say you find it easy to shape the ball.
maybe you should just stay with your open stance and try and understand it more. work to refine it.
if you look up Mindy Blake you will find a good site on his open stance golf style. also the book "swing my way" Lee Trevino might help you as well often on e-bay and amazon. there a few pro golfer that play open. Freddy Couples os one that springs to mind. i have been playing with a 35% open stance for of and on 35 years and no play of 10. i get a lot of enjoyment playing this way.
cheers
Bill

[Paraneva]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

hi
reading what you have to say i think you seem to be playing quite well with an open stance. you say you find it easy to shape the ball.
maybe you should just stay with your open stance and try and understand it more. work to refine it.
if you look up Mindy Blake you will find a good site on his open stance golf style. also the book "swing my way" Lee Trevino might help you as well often on e-bay and amazon. there a few pro golfer that play open. Freddy Couples os one that springs to mind. i have been playing with a 35% open stance for of and on 35 years and no play of 10. i get a lot of enjoyment playing this way.
cheers
Bill

Thanks for your encouraging reply. I have to check Mindy Blake's site and "swing my way" by Lee Trevino, I had not heard about them earlier. It is really to hear about others playing with open stance as it feels so natural to me. I will follow your advise and work with it!

[BrianW]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

I think that if someone has problems with release or just cannot get out of pushing the ball then setting up with an open stance will tend to assist them with getting through the shot better and straighten up the ball direction. It may also improve ball impact.

[bill reed]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

I think that if someone has problems with release or just cannot get out of pushing the ball then setting up with an open stance will tend to assist them with getting through the shot better and straighten up the ball direction. It may also improve ball impact.

hi Brian
i agree about the push shot, i think if you try to play with an open stance you want to delay the hands rolling over and the face closing the best way to do that is to play a push shot. delay the hand rolling till the club head is about knee hight and the ball had long gone.
you will lose some yards doing this but should hit the fairway with a nice controled fade most times.
cheers
Bill

[Pro Fitter]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Without seeing you swing and testing you on the FlightScope in the shop or on the range I can only guess. But there are some clues in your comments that may possibly be at least part of your problem. After being a golf Pro for over 35 years I got more into fitting about 8 years ago and I've learned a few things about the relationship of clubs to swing and how your clubs can change your swing.

From your description it is possible that at least some of your problems could be your equipment. If you study the PDF at this link:
http://www.agcpgolf.com/Ball_Flight_...or_fitting.pdf
you can figure out what might need to be done to your clubs to help you hit them all the same way.

Your push "could" be as simple as the clubs you push with are too heavy in total weight. The clubs you pull with "could" simply be too light in total weight.

Try using some lead tape on the short irons and see if they start moving to the right more as you add more weight. Typically in a fitting session I will add a 3 or 4 inch strip that is about 2 swing weights around the hosel of the irons and test, then add more if necessary until I get the results desired.

As you do this keep in mind as the chart says that adding more total weight could move the swing path more inside to outside and adding weight to the head could cause the face to open more.

You might want to find a good qualified fitter in your area and have him check your swing and your equipment.
http://www.agcplocator.com/

Good luck!

[Paraneva]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Without seeing you swing and testing you on the FlightScope in the shop or on the range I can only guess. But there are some clues in your comments that may possibly be at least part of your problem. After being a golf Pro for over 35 years I got more into fitting about 8 years ago and I've learned a few things about the relationship of clubs to swing and how your clubs can change your swing.

From your description it is possible that at least some of your problems could be your equipment. If you study the PDF at this link:
http://www.agcpgolf.com/Ball_Flight_a...or_fitting.pdf
you can figure out what might need to be done to your clubs to help you hit them all the same way.

Your push "could" be as simple as the clubs you push with are too heavy in total weight. The clubs you pull with "could" simply be too light in total weight.

Try using some lead tape on the short irons and see if they start moving to the right more as you add more weight. Typically in a fitting session I will add a 3 or 4 inch strip that is about 2 swing weights around the hosel of the irons and test, then add more if necessary until I get the results desired.

As you do this keep in mind as the chart says that adding more total weight could move the swing path more inside to outside and adding weight to the head could cause the face to open more.

You might want to find a good qualified fitter in your area and have him check your swing and your equipment.
http://www.agcplocator.com/

Good luck!

Hi!

This sounds really interesting. I am 6 feet tall but I have fairly short and light hands so there really might be something in this. My first Pro said that standard clubs fit me and so far I have believed him. My irons are mostly from the original set (Lynx) which I bought fall 2005 when I had just started to play. The rest I have bought one by one with some testing at the range. So no fitting so far. But I have thought about it and I think you just made the decision for me Thanks!
PS1. I don't find "push" so bad (if only the angle were consistent) as then you have a lot of sector to work with.
PS2. I know I can improve my game with many other ways .... but well,
the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys

[Pro Fitter]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

You can check your center fact hits if you find or order some Markit spray for your clubface http://www.markit-golf.com/index.htm

You spray a little on the face and hit a shot and see where the ball hit the face. If it's not on the center of the face from heel to toe chances are the length is wrong for you.

Also your left and right could be lie angle on your irons. If they are too upright you will hit the ball left of target, too flat and the ball goes right of target. The more loft on the iron the more the shot will be off line. To get an idea how this works take your stance with a Sand Wedge and sit the club behind the ball, keeping the heel in place and the face pointed at the target slowly move the shaft straight down between your legs towards the ground keeping the heel on the ground and letting the toe come up and watch what happens to the face of the club. It will point to the left as the club drops down. Raise the club up on the toe the same way and it moves the face to the right. These are exaggerated lie angles but illustrate why the ball goes off line when your lie angles are not set properly.

You can test your lie with a ball and a grease pencil.
Draw a straight line on the ball and place it so the line is straight up and down on the back of the ball so it hits the club face when you hit the ball. Hit a shot and look at the transfer on the face and the line should be perpendicular to the sole of the club for a straight shot. If the line is angled towards the toe you need to bend the lie flatter to get the line straight up and down. If the line is towards the heel bend more upright to get the line straight up and down. You have to do this hitting balls because of the shaft droop caused by the golf swing. Address position has nothing to do with lie. You have to know where the line is at impact from a full swing to account for shaft droop.

Let me know how it goes.

Good Luck!

BTW - A good fitting is a lot less expensive than buying new clubs year after year. If you decide to get a fitting I recommend that you buy a Copy of Tom Wishon's book "Search for the Perfect Golf Club" and reading it before you do. It was book of the year and Mr. Wishon goes into great detail about what a good, better, best fitting should include and gives you a list of questions to ask your fitter before you book a fitting. I give a copy to all of my bookings when they book and ask them to read it before they come in for their fitting. The more they know about what I should be doing the easier it is for me because I don't spend as much time explaining what I'm doing and why I'm going it. You get buy the book at Amazon.com - Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more for about what I have to pay for them to resell.

[Ringer]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

This is what Hogan suggested for the setup. I agree with it for many reasons not the least of which is the knowledge of the D-Plane.

[Pro Fitter]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Ringer,
Good stuff. I agree.

But if you want more distance on your tee shots...

The driver position in Hogan's chart creates a downward angle of attack, or downward blow that both reduces the effective loft on the driver and creates more spin. Physically a flat face offers more energy return on a ball strike so a 0° Driver would give you the most ball speed off the face. This means the less loft we use the higher the ball speed for the same swing speed.

To achieve maximum ball speed and reduced spin use a driver with lower loft and strike the driver shot with an upward angle by playing the ball past the bottom of the swing arc or towards the toe more. This will result in higher ball speed, less spin which will produce more carry at a higher launch and also produce more roll out from reduced spin.

Launch angle and trajectory are all about ball position in the stance and tee height. Harder shot but high rewards if you can do it.

[Ringer]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Ringer,
Good stuff. I agree.

But if you want more distance on your tee shots...

The driver position in Hogan's chart creates a downward angle of attack, or downward blow that both reduces the effective loft on the driver and creates more spin. Physically a flat face offers more energy return on a ball strike so a 0° Driver would give you the most ball speed off the face. This means the less loft we use the higher the ball speed for the same swing speed.

To achieve maximum ball speed and reduced spin use a driver with lower loft and strike the driver shot with an upward angle by playing the ball past the bottom of the swing arc or towards the toe more. This will result in higher ball speed, less spin which will produce more carry at a higher launch and also produce more roll out from reduced spin.

Launch angle and trajectory are all about ball position in the stance and tee height. Harder shot but high rewards if you can do it.

That's interesting. When I set up this way it causes me to swing up at the ball with the driver. I'm hitting down with my wedges though.

[keiko]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Hogan set up this way because he was countering a visious hook; no one except a few pro's would recommend setting up this way. The pro's that use it have used it since their beginning and they all have a loop swing.
Open stance creates cutting across the ball.

This is what Hogan suggested for the setup. I agree with it for many reasons not the least of which is the knowledge of the D-Plane.

[BrianW]

Re: Continue with open stance or not

Hogan set up this way because he was countering a visious hook; no one except a few pro's would recommend setting up this way. The pro's that use it have used it since their beginning and they all have a loop swing.
Open stance creates cutting across the ball.

I see your point but I tend to use an open stance with Pitch and Chip shots. The reason is that due to the shot being more about accuracy than distance the shot needs less than a full swing, setting up with an open stance sets the hips already rotated and cleared. There is not enough time to get the hips clear in these short shots.