Run Away

[BrianW]

If someone trys to teach you how to shape a shot the way this video does then run away fast, you will perfect hitting into the trees:

[LowPost42]

Re: Run Away

It's the old ball flight laws that say swing down your target line with the face pointed at your target to work the ball there.

The modern launch monitor and high speed camera have shown this is simply not true. Face angle dictates ~85% of the initial startind direction of the ball, while swing path gets the other ~15%. It's the disparity between face angle and swing path that creates curvature.

It's part of the reason that when guys who slice move the ball up in their stance, they slice more (even though they're thinking to themselves that they have to hit pulls and hooks since the swing path is moving back inside). The problem is, if they keep the clubface pointed at the target, the effective path is out to in with an open clubface - so a little pull with a big slice as the motion across the ball is still a great big wipe.

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

Brian, I am curious if you know of a video that demonstrates a method that you would promote? He mentions that Jack Nicklaus teaches this method. Is that true? Thanks for the video.

This video explains how the clubface and swingpath affect ball flight. The sound quality is not great but try to follow the way the clubface determines the ball take off direction and the swing path difference determines how the ball flight is affected after takeoff.

[keiko]

Re: Run Away

Jack used to open or close the clubface with minor changes to alignment at times. Arnie believed in the release, ie. release more to draw, hold off the release to hit a fade.
Every player has his/her way to make it happen; there are so many ways and if they work for the individual they are correct.
The test is whether one can do it consistently and under pressure.
First, one should probably determine what is their natural ball flight; this is one that occurs most of the time without any manipulation. You hear it all the time, "his natural ball flight is a draw so it will be hard for him to hit that fade he needs to get around trouble or shorten the dogleg."
Many amateurs(and a few touring pro's) don't know their natural ball flight because they don't have one; due to inconsistent
fundamentals, and ball striking.
Before one tries the draw or fade techniques, determine what you do time after time; have the same grip, alignment, swing plane, etc. and hit 50 balls and keep track of what the ball does. Once you determine your natural ball flight, then determine what you might change for another ball flight.
To skip these steps will doom one to a frustrated and worse consistency pattern.

The John Dunigan explanation is actually quite close to how I assumed it all worked for about 40 years now. I didn't realize it was new. I thought that club head path accounted for more than 15% but I can see that.

I think the way the first guy was trying to teach it would only work if the student subconsciously changed swing path or club face angle, or both.

For a draw I have always used the line up closed to the target line to promote the inside out swing path and close the club face to point at the target method. If I hit it flush it seems to start out about 15 degrees to the right and draw to target with no (conscience) change in my regular swing. Just open stance and club face for fade.

Without a high speed camera I don't really know what happens when I swing the club. My swing is a mystery to me but the concept of swing path and club face angle to promote spin and curvature has been obvious since I threw my first curve ball, hit my first topspin forehand, rolled my first hook strike bowling, hooked my first ping pong ball back onto the table from way back, etc. etc. etc.

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

The 'D' plane is a physical geometric influence and as such removes the 'Black Art' or confusion in the way a ball travels from impact. The 'D' plane is infact a 3D surface that is formed by taking the direction of the swingpath through the ball as it's base and the direction of the clubface normal to it's loft loft as it's vector. The balls axis of rotation will make a surface normal to the 'D' plane surface and it is this that defines the curvature of flight.

It is only 'new' in that older conventional teaching where swingpath decided initial direction and clubface vector decided flight curviture was completely wrong. I know I have hit to many balls into trees by following this teaching, now I have a good understanding of 'D' plane laws I can reliably shape shots.

These videos show some tour players and how the 'D' plane affected their shots:

[keiko]

Re: Run Away

It's always been known that the guy who slices and aims further left to fix it only slices more. Not sure about D plane, us old guys never analyzed and we always felt "paraylsis by analysis" was something to fear.

The 'D' plane is a physical geometric influence and as such removes the 'Black Art' or confusion in the way a ball travels from impact. The 'D' plane is infact a 3D surface that is formed by taking the direction of the swingpath through the ball as it's base and the direction of the clubface normal to it's loft loft as it's vector. The balls axis of rotation will make a surface normal to the 'D' plane surface and it is this that defines the curvature of flight.

It is only 'new' in that older conventional teaching where swingpath decided initial direction and clubface vector decided flight curviture was completely wrong. I know I have hit to many balls into trees by following this teaching, now I have a good understanding of 'D' plane laws I can reliably shape shots.

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

It's always been known that the guy who slices and aims further left to fix it only slices more. Not sure about D plane, us old guys never analyzed and we always felt "paraylsis by analysis" was something to fear.

I understand what you are saying Keiko but I think it is good for a golfer to get their head around the concept of 'D' plane. I cant exactly take the ground of the 'Young Guys' here but this old dog is still capable of learning some new tricks. Guys that slice do it due to their swingpath being left of their clubface direction. I can slice a ball while swinging in to out as long as my clubface is pointing left of the swingpath. I can hook with an out to in path as long as my club face is pointing right of the swingpath.

Another interesting point is that the more loft the club has the nearer the clubface vector lies in relation to the swingpath and it is this that reduces draw or fade with lofted clubs and not the backspin over riding the sidespin which has been taught for so long. In fact it is not possible for a ball to have two axis of spin at the same time.

This is an interesting subject to discuss and I have made a point of studying and putting it into practice, I welcome any comments and would like to point out now that I am not looking to discredit anyone in this discussion, rather help to pass on something that I feel is very important to golfers that wish to gain a better understanding of shot shaping.

[keiko]

Re: Run Away

So you are saying, a slice comes from having swingpath left of clubface direction, wouldn't that be an out to in swing?
You also say if swingpath is right of clubface direction one will hook, so was jack right to think that if he closed the clubface he would draw/hook?
Just trying to understand this concept.

QUOTE=BrianW;10575761]I understand what you are saying Keiko but I think it is good for a golfer to get their head around the concept of 'D' plane. I cant exactly take the ground of the 'Young Guys' here but this old dog is still capable of learning some new tricks. Guys that slice do it due to their swingpath being left of their clubface direction. I can slice a ball while swinging in to out as long as my clubface is pointing left of the swingpath. I can hook with an out to in path as long as my club face is pointing right of the swingpath.

Another interesting point is that the more loft the club has the nearer the clubface vector lies in relation to the swingpath and it is this that reduces draw or fade with lofted clubs and not the backspin over riding the sidespin which has been taught for so long. In fact it is not possible for a ball to have two axis of spin at the same time.

This is an interesting subject to discuss and I have made a point of studying and putting it into practice, I welcome any comments and would like to point out now that I am not looking to discredit anyone in this discussion, rather help to pass on something that I feel is very important to golfers that wish to gain a better understanding of shot shaping.[/QUOTE]

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

So you are saying, a slice comes from having swingpath left of clubface direction, wouldn't that be an out to in swing?
You also say if swingpath is right of clubface direction one will hook, so was jack right to think that if he closed the clubface he would draw/hook?
Just trying to understand this concept.

What you must understand is that the ball does not know anything about the target line, it is only concerned with the direction the clubface is pointing and the direction the club strikes the ball. In to out and out to in only has a meaning in relation to the target line. The ball will take off mainly in the direction the clubface points and any tilting of the rotation axis is created by the club cutting across the ball. If the swingpath and clubface are in the same direction at impact then the ball will go straight (forward, push or pull), if the swingpath is to the right of the clubface then the ball will spin clockwise producing a fade or slice depending on magnitude of the variation, if the swingpath is to the left of the clubface direction the ball will spin anticlockwise creating a draw or hook depending again on the magnitude of the variation.

Closing the clubface will only control the balls initial flight direction.

[keiko]

Re: Run Away

1.Your last post seems to be contrary to your previous post
2. Do you think anyone actually believes the ball knows anything?
3. I doubt 1 out of 50 pro's or less knows, cares or understands "D Plane", yet they seem to play at a very high level; I am a 2 handicap, are you saying I could improve by understanding "D plane"?

What you must understand is that the ball does not know anything about the target line, it is only concerned with the direction the clubface is pointing and the direction the club strikes the ball. In to out and out to in only has a meaning in relation to the target line. The ball will take off mainly in the direction the clubface points and any tilting of the rotation axis is created by the club cutting across the ball. If the swingpath and clubface are in the same direction at impact then the ball will go straight (forward, push or pull), if the swingpath is to the right of the clubface then the ball will spin clockwise producing a fade or slice depending on magnitude of the variation, if the swingpath is to the left of the clubface direction the ball will spin anticlockwise creating a draw or hook depending again on the magnitude of the variation.

Closing the clubface will only control the balls initial flight direction.

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

1.Your last post seems to be contrary to your previous post
2. Do you think anyone actually believes the ball knows anything?
3. I doubt 1 out of 50 pro's or less knows, cares or understands "D Plane", yet they seem to play at a very high level; I am a 2 handicap, are you saying I could improve by understanding "D plane"?

To be honest I dont care any more. I try to start a debate on a subject that I think will help people on this site and all it does is create friction. I am not addressing Tour Pro's on this site but average Joes like me that like to learn more about the golf swing, If you are not interested in the reality and physics of what happens in golf then why should I care. My posts have not been contary, maybe you just have not understood the concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHiY5iv5u4

PS, I am also a single digit handicap golfer and have been for a long time so please dont level that one at me.

[keiko]

Re: Run Away

There is no friction or anything like that. I am just pointing out the posts seem to be in conflict, ie. one post says left produces slice and the other says right produces slice, I am confused
Not leveling anything towards you, just asking if understanding D plane will make me a better player.
Let's continue the "debate" but quite honestly I don't understand anything about D plane.
Sorry if I offended you and I apologize sincerely.
I love this site and don't want anything to make it any less for me so I will skip further debate on this one.

To be honest I dont care any more. I try to start a debate on a subject that I think will help people on this site and all it does is create friction. I am not addressing Tour Pro's on this site but average Joes like me that like to learn more about the golf swing, If you are not interested in the reality and physics of what happens in golf then why should I care. My posts have not been contary, maybe you just have not understood the concept.

YouTube - Ball Flight Laws from Golf Evolution

PS, I am also a single digit handicap golfer and have been for a long time so please dont level that one at me.

[BrianW]

Re: Run Away

There is no friction or anything like that. I am just pointing out the posts seem to be in conflict, ie. one post says left produces slice and the other says right produces slice, I am confused
Not leveling anything towards you, just asking if understanding D plane will make me a better player.
Let's continue the "debate" but quite honestly I don't understand anything about D plane.
Sorry if I offended you and I apologize sincerely.
I love this site and don't want anything to make it any less for me so I will skip further debate on this one.

OK Keiko, maybe I was a bit sensitive as well.

Understanding the 'D' plane will make people better golfers as it will allow them to unerstand how to shape the ball flight, be that straight, left or right.

I hoped the videos I attached would explain the concept but it's basic laws are:

If through impact the clubface and swingpath point the same way the shot will take off in the direction of the clubface and stay straight.

If the swingpath points right of the clubface then the ball will take off in the direction of the clubface then turn to the right in flight

If the swingpath points left of the clubface the ball will take off in the direction of the clubface then turn left in flight.

The further the angle between the clubface and swingpath the more the ball will turn.

Lets look at some practical examles:

You want the ball to take off slightly right and draw back to the centre. Setup aligned slightly open to your target with the clubface pointing a little to the right, make a swing that goes slightly in to out so that the swingpath is moving a little further right than the clubface. The ball will take off slightly right of target then draw back towards the middle.

If you want the same shot but with a higher trajectory and more of a hooking flight: Setup as before and open the clubface slightly, swing even more in to out so that the swingpath is even further right of the clubface. The ball will fligh high to the right and hook back to the left.

To fade or slice around an object just apply the opposite theory ( Swing left of clubface direction).

It needs some practice to get a feel for the way the ball moves, some half swings with an 8 iron is the best way to understand the effects.

You dont need to think about turning the clubface over through impact as traditional teaching has suggested either, just make your normal swing so that the club releases naturally.

I hope this helps to explain.

[LowPost42]

Re: Run Away

This is one of the things that confused me most when I started golfing - the "moving targets". There was always discussion of the target line and ball flight relative to it, then the swing path and ball flight relative to it.

What I've learned (and D-Plane is the fancy modern term) is that ball flight relative to swing path is all that matters.

Lets assume I'm correct in this.

Then we can state that initial ball direction is more-or-less controlled by clubface direction at impact.

Now we can also discover and know that curvature is the deviation between swing path and ball flight.

So to sum up:

Ball flight is all relative to how the ball is struck.
Face angle is the major determiner of initial ball direction.
Curving is caused by differential in face angle and clubhead path.

"Push" or "Pull" are only relative to the target line and can be just as easily solved with alignment as with ball position. Push and pull are relative to the target. Once the ball is struck, it can either fade, draw, or go (relatively) straight.

It's the angle of the clubface at the ball relative to the movement of the clubhead that creates our spin.

Brian is also correct that the ball doesn't spin on two planes (much like the earth doesn't spin on two planes). It's a single unfixed axis. We call it "side spin" to keep it simple; perhaps a more accurate term is axial pole or spin line - and it's deviation from perpendicular.

Does this mean that if you've been setting your feet to where you want the ball to start and the clubface to where you want it to end that you've been fooling yourself into making the ball do what you want? No. Simply that what's going on when you do that isn't what you think it is.

At the end of the day, ball flight is king. Did it do what you wanted and go where you wanted it to? We simply have science now that can offer a different perspective on the machinations of ball flight; a different perspective that can be offered.

It's no different than the evolution of swing instruction. We've graduated from pulling ropes and carrying trays and squashing bugs and shaking hands (all methods that still work) to focusing on the engagement of specific muscles and/or muscle groups to produce the golf-swing motion.

[kbp]

Re: Run Away

There are two issues here. The first issue is the physics of ball flight, which is fact and has not changed. To me and many others, the "new" laws are not "new". Open the clubface 45 degrees to the target at impact and try any path you like. No WAY you can start that ball any direction but RIGHT and pretty much where the face is pointed. To quote the great intellectual Mr. Charlie Sheen, "Duh". If you cut across the ball it’s going to curve. Duh, again.

The second issue is the method to achieve the desired ball flight. The ball does not know the method employed. Any "method" works if it works. Are you going to tell Nicklaus that his method didn’t "work" for him?

Setup is NOT impact. Changing the face angle of the club changes the balance of the club and the action of the clubhead in the swing. Just because you set it one way does not mean it will come back EXACTLY that way.

The "old" method is actually the way most people setup a "stock" iron shot to the target from a square setup. The face is set behind the ball and square to the target at setup. The club approaches the ball from above and from the inside. Before it hits the bottom of the arc, it impacts the ball and the path is still moving slightly outward, to the right of the target. According to the "new" method, this shot would start at the target and draw left of the target. In reality, the face returns a tad open at impact and we one hop it in the hole. Put me down for 2, please. .