D Plane question

[keiko]

Does D plane theory take into account how the hands release at impact? Whether the release is full, partial or held off?

[LowPost42]

Re: D Plane question

I've only got a rudimentary understanding of d plane, but worrying about release is wondering what the spokes do in the function of a wheel turned by the steering arms.

I don't believe d plane is concerned with anything except how the clubface is interacting with the ball; whether you've compressed it nicely with forward shaft lean, you're hitting a little wipe-y cut shot or outright flipped at it.

To put it another way, my brother in law explained D plane very simply to me once: You're slicing the ball. Fix your path.

Don't we always tell slicers that the problem is that the face is open? In my case, my path was the issue. I did an incredible job of holding the face square to target, but coming over the top (so outside in), but my ball would start relatively straight then bend like a mother. I was (at one point) 12 degrees out to in with a square FA (both relative to target). That, my friends, is some serious side spin (or to be more specific, axial tilt deviated from vertical).

I think you may be "trying too hard" or "over thinking" this, keiko. IMO, d plane is more of a lab-rat thing (with apologies to Brian); it's explaining the scientific "why"; which is an explanation we haven't had.

I think if you tried to explain d plane to someone like Bubba Watson, he'd be off the tour in two years. He doesn't have a mind that lends itself to technical ideas and minutiae. He's a "see it, feel it, hit it" guy who's hit enough balls to know what he has to do to make it work.

[keiko]

Re: D Plane question

You are right, I am overthinking it but when something like D plane is presented I want to understand it. Why? to see if maybe I have been missing something important and to challenge myself to understand something that isn't so easily explained or understood. I try to balance keeping an open mind on new theories while continuing to use what works for me. I have opinions too, for example, I have seen dozens of theories come and go such as stack and tilt.
D Plane is one of those theories that I find challenging; like if it is so important and critical, why have I been playing so well for so many years without knowing anything about it.
I have always known and understood the relationship between face angle, shaft angle swing plane and a myriad of fundamentals-now that does come easily to me. But, when someone states that "what we have understood for all these years is patently wrong", I perk up and pay attention. I say,"what do you mean we were misled, what do you mean we were ignorant" How could it be that the likes of Sarazan, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Jones, Nicklaus, and the rest didn't know or understand D plane and yet were some of the finest technicians and players of the game. I used to watch Hogan practice and I played with Snead many times when I was a young man, I have attended many tournaments when I was very young when the greats were playing and I have played tournament golf from an early age, I can tell you I have seen some of the most unbelievable shots, swings, and results in golf.
It's just hard to believe that a technician such as myself has yet to grasp D plane.
LOL

I've only got a rudimentary understanding of d plane, but worrying about release is wondering what the spokes do in the function of a wheel turned by the steering arms.

I don't believe d plane is concerned with anything except how the clubface is interacting with the ball; whether you've compressed it nicely with forward shaft lean, you're hitting a little wipe-y cut shot or outright flipped at it.

To put it another way, my brother in law explained D plane very simply to me once: You're slicing the ball. Fix your path.

Don't we always tell slicers that the problem is that the face is open? In my case, my path was the issue. I did an incredible job of holding the face square to target, but coming over the top (so outside in), but my ball would start relatively straight then bend like a mother. I was (at one point) 12 degrees out to in with a square FA (both relative to target). That, my friends, is some serious side spin (or to be more specific, axial tilt deviated from vertical).

I think you may be "trying too hard" or "over thinking" this, keiko. IMO, d plane is more of a lab-rat thing (with apologies to Brian); it's explaining the scientific "why"; which is an explanation we haven't had.

I think if you tried to explain d plane to someone like Bubba Watson, he'd be off the tour in two years. He doesn't have a mind that lends itself to technical ideas and minutiae. He's a "see it, feel it, hit it" guy who's hit enough balls to know what he has to do to make it work.

[LowPost42]

Re: D Plane question

The one thing that preoccupies my mind - especially in the world of golf - is the preoccupation with the data procured in a lab. Take, for example, the latest Callaway Razr Driver commercial - "performance over paint"; "6 yards longer than Taylormade R11".
The truth is, it's an inch longer - creating more speed and so, flushed hit for flushed hit. The face is no hotter and you have to control the longer driver. As I'm fond of saying "is there a playable difference?" In other words, will I notice this technological advance on the course? In the case of the new Callaway driver, the answer is "no".

So in the world of D plane; we're simply explaining the actual pheonomena of what goes on at impact between the clubhead and the ball. What we originally thought was happening between the clubhead path and the face angle and spin has been proven false. This is akin to finding out that the world is, indeed, round. It was always round, now we have proof that it is, in fact, round. You still sail a boat the same way you did when you thought the world was flat. You still swim in the water the same way, but you simply have more information about what happens if you sail or swim past the horizon.

So I'd offer that if you're already aware of the clubhead path/clubface angle relationship and what it does to your ball flight, I'd say you have a good understanding of D plane. D plane isn't going to help you hit better shots per se or help you hit it closer. It will help you understand your miss so you can correct on the fly.

For example, if I've been hitting a tight little draw all day off the tee, then all of a sudden I hit a big slice; the ball flight will tell me if it was a bad path or a bad face angle.

[BrianW]

Re: D Plane question

'D Plane' is just a label, the term 'New ball flight laws' are also used but ball flight laws are not new, they have been misunderstood by many people though and the source by some eminent coaches and golfers of incorrect information, this has caused many people (Me included in the past) to do the wrong things when attempting to either fix ball flight problems or to learn how to shape shots. Anyhow lets not get hooked up on the terms.

Now lets move away from Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan and such emenent names for a bit and focus on the handicap golfer, most of these people go through their golfing lives slicing, hooking, pushing and pulling the ball and dont seem able to fix it. Some just resign themselves to compensating for the flaw which will restrict their progress, others read books, take lessons or manage to work it out for themselves, the vast majority never sort it out.

I have paid good money on coaching by PGA Proffessionals that have taught me the wrong way to shape ballflight and this has cost me dearly in balls that have sailed into the trees when I expected them to bend nicely around them. The 'D' plane is not a simple thing to understand as to represent it graphically you need to map out a 3D webbed surface that is formed between the clubface's direction vector on the top edge and the swingpath vector through the ball at the bottom, the balls axis of rotation creates a surface normal to this 3D plane in flight and it is this that determines how the ball will generate side spin.

OK, I am an Engineer and a software developer and this type of geometry is what I thrive on, it is not what you would want to teach to a struggling student though. You dont need to, if they are slicing then they simply need to understand that they are swinging to the left of the clubface direction, if they are hooking they need to understand they are swinging to the right of the clubface, pulls and pushes they are swinging in line with the clubface but are out of alignment. It is not difficult to explain how to fade or draw the ball using this type of explanation.

Good players may have managed to understand how to do this without refering to 'D Plane' and as long as they are satisfied with their ball flight then thats good enough for them. To return to my main point here, teaching has been in the large poor on this subject over the years and it would help the great unwashed out there if they were given help that actually worked for them and removed some of the uncertainty and mistery of golf improvement.

Here are some more examples of how the teachings of shot shaping have been wrong:

http://www.golfer-today.co.uk/golf-l...raw-shots.html

http://sweetgolftips.com/?p=274

http://golfgurls.com/jack-nicklaus-a...eep-it-simple/