early vs. late wrist hinge

[keiko]

I find some underestimate the power of the hands and wrists in the swing and therefore they may not put alot of focus on how they are hinging the wrists. Some do it early, some do it late and some not much at all.
Why is this important?
Awareness of the hinging of the wrists can lead one to better ball striking, something we all want. Some slicers for example don't fully hinge their wrists which leaves the clubface open at impact or otherwise inhibits the flush contact with the ball. Loss of distance and shot inconsistency are the result.
The feet together drill is a good one to demonstrate this. By hitting balls with the feet together and at about 50% effort and with no tension in the hands, one can quickly find out what they are doing. That easy fluid swinging allows the hands to work their magic.
Thoughts are appreciated.

[rogue]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

I think its largely an individual thing. Some hinge early, some hinge later. I use the hammer and nail analogy for a lot of my students and just let them hinge their wrists naturally to them. I do like your feet together drill although rarely use it, maybe i bring it out again. I don't know about the slicers not fully hingeing their wrists correlation. Sure its possible but slicing is not caused by not hingeing the wrists. Several players on tour are late hingers and not full setters (they do increase the lag more in the downswing but are very late hingeing back, like McDowell, Garcia, Villegas etc). Others like Elkington hinged very early.

I usually use a nail angled downward more and people naturally get more hinge with their irons, steepening the angle of attack. But i would rarely talk directly about the wrist action - i feel that is like talking about the mechanics of the kinematic sequence to someone. Largely unnecessary.

[keiko]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

mcdowell, garcia, villegas are all "extreme down cockers", not sure they are late cockers but I take your word for it.
Anyone who fails to hinge their wrists will slice; it's just that way.
Anyone who ignores wrist hinge does so at their own (swing's) peril.

I think its largely an individual thing. Some hinge early, some hinge later. I use the hammer and nail analogy for a lot of my students and just let them hinge their wrists naturally to them. I do like your feet together drill although rarely use it, maybe i bring it out again. I don't know about the slicers not fully hingeing their wrists correlation. Sure its possible but slicing is not caused by not hingeing the wrists. Several players on tour are late hingers and not full setters (they do increase the lag more in the downswing but are very late hingeing back, like McDowell, Garcia, Villegas etc). Others like Elkington hinged very early.

I usually use a nail angled downward more and people naturally get more hinge with their irons, steepening the angle of attack. But i would rarely talk directly about the wrist action - i feel that is like talking about the mechanics of the kinematic sequence to someone. Largely unnecessary.

[rogue]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

lol. I did say they increase their lag in the downswing. but it still doesnt detract from the fact they are LATE hingers and not full setters at the top. The title of this article is regarding late or early hinge.... not how much. Cocking more in the downswing (if you would even call it that, i would define it as lagging) is still a very late way to do it,

And as for no hinge causing a slice, still not true. An open face at impact in relation to thhe path causes a slice. It will always be the only factor. Heres a hypothetical experiment for you. Go to a range and start with the clubface 45 degrees left in set up. make swings with no wrist hinge and hit the ball. What the hell do you think would happen, not a slice thats for sure unless ur doing something strange to purposefully manipulate the club open to prove me wrong, something i wouldnt put past you..haha. So if no hinge doesnt cause a slice, i don't see how your original statement of

"don't FULLY hinge their wrists which leaves the clubface open at impact"

is true. The ball doesnt get its information form the top of your swing, how would it ever 'know' how much hinge you have at the top? And regarding strike, I dont hinge my wrists at all in my swing for chipping yet i have no problem striking the ball crisply. How do you propose this is?

[keiko]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

when you chip you have limited shoulder turn and weight transfer so path, face and plane are not affected. in the full swing, that is not the case. also, pro's have adapted to whatever they are doing with their swing; my comments concern the amateur.

lol. I did say they increase their lag in the downswing. but it still doesnt detract from the fact they are LATE hingers and not full setters at the top. The title of this article is regarding late or early hinge.... not how much. Cocking more in the downswing (if you would even call it that, i would define it as lagging) is still a very late way to do it,

And as for no hinge causing a slice, still not true. An open face at impact in relation to thhe path causes a slice. It will always be the only factor. Heres a hypothetical experiment for you. Go to a range and start with the clubface 45 degrees left in set up. make swings with no wrist hinge and hit the ball. What the hell do you think would happen, not a slice thats for sure unless ur doing something strange to purposefully manipulate the club open to prove me wrong, something i wouldnt put past you..haha. So if no hinge doesnt cause a slice, i don't see how your original statement of

"don't FULLY hinge their wrists which leaves the clubface open at impact"

is true. The ball doesnt get its information form the top of your swing, how would it ever 'know' how much hinge you have at the top? And regarding strike, I dont hinge my wrists at all in my swing for chipping yet i have no problem striking the ball crisply. How do you propose this is?

[rogue]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

when you chip you have limited shoulder turn and weight transfer so path, face and plane are not affected. in the full swing, that is not the case. also, pro's have adapted to whatever they are doing with their swing; my comments concern the amateur.

That's right, path and plane are not affected during chipping with limited wrist hinge. So why wouldn't that be the same for full swing too. By the way I am not suggesting people swing with limited wrist hinge, but I have seen several successful players do this. (I by no means think this is the secret to golf) it goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat. Interestingly Jason Zuback is a very late setter of the club, and not an extreme downcocker, World long drive champion many times.

I also teach several players who have very limited wrist hinge, and are not extreme downcockers and amazingly, they hit draws. Sure some of them slice (everyone falls into one of those two categories).


Regarding your comment about pro's adapting - I fully agree. In fact most of my time is spent teaching people what these adpatations are and how they can use them to their advantage. When I see a pro with a 'bad swing' and someone always asks how they are so good. The lame reply is always -they are just talented and can do it anyway they want. Well, what is talent exactly. Can we teach it? I dont think talent is some kind of stardust sprinkled onto people at birth. Sure there will always be some that rise above the crop but I think a lot of what makes a professional good can be taught.

And that doesnt mean anything technical per se. Ball control, course management, repeatability, are basically all you need. The technique stems from there.

What do you think

[BrianW]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

And as for no hinge causing a slice, still not true. An open face at impact in relation to thhe path causes a slice. It will always be the only factor.

I can hook a ball with an open face. All I need to do is make a swingpath that moves further right than the direction the clubface points. People that slice make a swingpath to the left of the clubfaces direction, that's the only way they can do it.

[rogue]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

I dont know what you mean with your last comment. You are saying exactly the same thing. A swingpth that is left of the clubface is the same thing as a clubface that is open in relation to the swing. Either way it is the only way the ball will curve right. if you open the face then make a swingpath that is further right than that direction then the clubface is no longer open in relation to the path, that's why you can draw.

I don't know what your intentions were with the last comment? could you explain further Brian
Thanks

[BrianW]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

I dont know what you mean with your last comment. You are saying exactly the same thing. A swingpth that is left of the clubface is the same thing as a clubface that is open in relation to the swing. Either way it is the only way the ball will curve right. if you open the face then make a swingpath that is further right than that direction then the clubface is no longer open in relation to the path, that's why you can draw.

I don't know what your intentions were with the last comment? could you explain further Brian
Thanks

Sorry, I misread your post, you are correct.

[BrianW]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

I dont think it makes much difference when you hinge your wrists in the backswing as long as when you start down the clubhead is lagging behind your hands without tension and you make no effort to release this tension free hinging through impact.

[keiko]

Re: early vs. late wrist hinge

I've always thought early wrist hinge allows one less thing to go wrong in the swing.
As far as Zuback, check out his shoulder turn and weight transfer; I guess I should have qualified my thread by stating that people who freeze their wrists often have poor shoulder turn and weight transfer.
Lot's of things to pick wrong if one wants to do it.
I like to do the opposite when reading a post.