over the top and V1 software

[vectorinvestor]

I downloaded the free version and for the first time saw my swing, wow its ugly.

I drew a line matching the club angle at address to create the proper plane angle. I noticed that about halfway back my hands, arms, shaft all come above the line and stay above it till right before impact. I was amazed how off it was considering how well I thought it was on it previously.

Is this what over the top is????

I guess this means my swing is too steep and I should think of a flatter plane?

[TeachingPro]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Hey, another V1 user. I have the pro version and I use it extensively in my teaching.

Yep, you have an "over the top" swing alright. On the way down, everything should be below that original line - to the inside of the original swing plane. To say that your swing plane is too steep isn't technically correct but I understand what you're saying - your downswing steeper than your backswing. That shouldn't be the case.

To solve it, with practice, is not difficult. If you want help and a drill (or 2), post or e-mail and I'll help you out.

Don't feel alone - almost everyone who sees their swing for the first time is suprised at how "ugly" the swing is. But, they get away with the mistakes (sometimes) by adjusting with another error and grooving it in to get around the golf course.

[vectorinvestor]

Re: over the top and V1 software

wow I can't believe how your downswing should be on the inside of that plane, I can already tell this is not going to be an easy fix. (I went back and looked at all my swings and not one was inside the plane angle)


I would greatly apprectiate any drills you may have. Thank you for your help.

[dlaville]

Re: over the top and V1 software

I downloaded the free version and for the first time saw my swing, wow its ugly.

I drew a line matching the club angle at address to create the proper plane angle. I noticed that about halfway back my hands, arms, shaft all come above the line and stay above it till right before impact. I was amazed how off it was considering how well I thought it was on it previously.

Is this what over the top is????

I guess this means my swing is too steep and I should think of a flatter plane?

I don't think you totally understand the concept of the plane. You do not stay on the same plane throughout the swing. The first half of your backswing (until about hip high when the shaft is parallel to the ground) is on the plane of the shaft. You then do a plane shift to a more vertical plane that goes through your right shoulder at the top. Your backswing is more of a curved path than a straight line.

The downswing is not inside of the backswing, that is a fallacy. The downswing plane is slightly above the backswing plane but still inside-out in reference to the target line. When Dr. Mann analyzed the swings of 100 tour pros 99 of them had a downswing slightly outside of the backswing. Only 1, Mark O'Meara had a downswing inside of the backswing and this was because when he worked with Hank Haney he used a training device where he took the club back on the outside of it but brought it down on the inside. The reason the downswing is outside of the backswing is very simple. When you take the club back your right shoulder turns back flatly, this is how the club swing back to the inside. In the down swing your right shoulder turns down directly on plane with the ball.

The following graphics will help explain it all;



The shaft establishes the initial backswing plane.



The club goes back on the plane of the shaft until hip high when the shaft is parallel with the ground.



The club then does a plane shift to the top. This plane shift occurs because the right forearm elevates vertically as the right elbow bends. This new plane goes through the right shoulder at the top. The right shoulder and hands lie on the same plane giving us the advantage that when the right shoulder turns down on plane it gives guidance and support to the hands - both are on plane.



Half way down notice how the clubhead is above the original shaft plane but still inside-out in reference to the ball. Note how the right shoulder is on the yellow plane.



At impact the shaft is 2-3 degrees above the original shaft plane and the right forearm and shaft are in-line. Notice how the right shoulder stays on the yellow plane.



I traced the clubhead frame for frame and you can see the path of the club is more of a curve than plane. Planes are used as reference points for where the club will locate at points in the swing but the club will move on a path from point to point.



Again tracing the clubhead in the downswing you can see the downswing path is outside of the backswing. Two interesting points here are how the yellow line at the top shows how the club is accelerated longitudinally (lengthwise) before it starts down at the ball and how the yellow downswing path is more straight line than the red backswing path.

[chen]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Very interseting David. So does this mean that the general theory amongst PGA teaching professionals that the ideal swing plane should be "in to - square - to in" is actually wrong and should be "in to - out - to in"?

[grouper1700]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Hello Mr. Graham Arnott,

I would highly appreciate it if you could email drills to correct over the top to this address raffyrr1@yahoo.com. Thank you so much....

[irhyper2]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Hello Mr. Graham Arnott,

I would highly appreciate it if you could email drills to correct over the top to this address raffyrr1@yahoo.com. Thank you so much....

Please copy me at teddleman@abtexas.com

[BIGGUY52]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Graham if you could send me some drills for this I would appreciate it soooo much

Thanks ricn@mountaincable.net

[edshaw]

Re: over the top and V1 software

I don't know what V1 software is, but the instruction in this thread is awesome and I'd encourage all young golfers to pay careful attention to what is being taught here. I speak from many early life lessons and tinkering thereafter. One thing that is very clear in the Tiger Woods Nike video that is making the rounds, the one shot with the air force camera, is that the first move down with the hands and arms is not contrived to fit a teaching model, such as "straight down" or anything like that. Just watch Tiger's hands as he starts his downswing. The main feature is that he maintains his wrist cock, if that is the term for it. But, golfers, don't forget -- at the top of Tiger's backswing, his left arm is pointed away from the camera. Don't expect to get Tiger results with a half Tiger motion.

[BrianW]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Hey, another V1 user. I have the pro version and I use it extensively in my teaching.

Yep, you have an "over the top" swing alright. On the way down, everything should be below that original line - to the inside of the original swing plane. To say that your swing plane is too steep isn't technically correct but I understand what you're saying - your downswing steeper than your backswing. That shouldn't be the case.

To solve it, with practice, is not difficult. If you want help and a drill (or 2), post or e-mail and I'll help you out.

Don't feel alone - almost everyone who sees their swing for the first time is suprised at how "ugly" the swing is. But, they get away with the mistakes (sometimes) by adjusting with another error and grooving it in to get around the golf course.

Hi Graham,

There is not a video to watch here but I am a little confused on what is being said? If he had a two plane swing then surely the plane of his club will be above that at address from the end of the takeaway to the point of release on the downswing. I imagine that only a single plane swing will keep more to the address plane throughout the swing?

Please can you clarify for me?

Regards
Brian.

[Mox]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Hi Graham,

There is not a video to watch here but I am a little confused on what is being said? If he had a two plane swing then surely the plane of his club will be above that at address from the end of the takeaway to the point of release on the downswing. I imagine that only a single plane swing will keep more to the address plane throughout the swing?

Please can you clarify for me?

Regards
Brian.

First of all ... I'm not sure Graham is around anymore. His post was from back in 2004.

But anyway ...

I think it is important to make something clear here.

To the best of my knowledge, the One-plane vs. Two-plane discussion is NOT about the shaft plane changing or not changing.
It is about the relative angles between the rotational plane of the shaft and the rotational plane of the shoulders.

A One-plane swing has the plane of the shoulder rotation parallel to the plane of the shaft rotation. A Two-plane swing has the shaft plane crossing over the shoulder plane.

A Two-plane swing would always have the clubhead moving ABOVE the shaft plane, EXCEPT at 2 vital points: Address and Impact!

A One-plane swing would try to have the clubhead moving along the shaft plane as much as possible.



I'm sure others can explain it better, but that's how I have come to understand it.

More info at Golfdigest.com

[BrianW]

Re: over the top and V1 software

First of all ... I'm not sure Graham is around anymore. His post was from back in 2004.

But anyway ...

I think it is important to make something clear here.

To the best of my knowledge, the One-plane vs. Two-plane discussion is NOT about the shaft plane changing or not changing.
It is about the relative angles between the rotational plane of the shaft and the rotational plane of the shoulders.

A One-plane swing has the plane of the shoulder rotation parallel to the plane of the shaft rotation. A Two-plane swing has the shaft plane crossing over the shoulder plane.

A Two-plane swing would always have the clubhead moving ABOVE the shaft plane, EXCEPT at 2 vital points: Address and Impact!

A One-plane swing would try to have the clubhead moving along the shaft plane as much as possible.



I'm sure others can explain it better, but that's how I have come to understand it.

More info at Golfdigest.com

Hi Mox,

Yes I agree with that, with a one planer the club is rotated around the plane of the shoulders, which rotate around the plane of the spine, which stay at the same angle as address. This keeps the club closer to the address plane throughout the swing.

Brian

[edshaw]

Re: over the top and V1 software

Very good input by all concerned. At a point, discussion might be hindered by lack of mutual understanding with respect to the terms being used. Please bear with me if I seem slow; it may be that I need to understand what is meant by, say for example, rotational plane of the shaft. That said, my model (the traditional one) has a takeaway plane set by a unit turn of body, arms, and shaft. The hands are quiet. At hands waist high, the relative positions of the key elements (hands, arms, shoulders, club) have not changed substantially from the address position. I support those statements with a reference to the Tiger slo-mo video, and don't find too may disagreeing with it. Now, at this point, things begin to get a little sticky, in terms of agreement. The traditional teaching is "back and up," meaning that the next move is skyward. Don't get me wrong, the plane is not vertical, because the hands still follow a diagonal path to the top, but the sense in the hands is still that the club is being lifted to the top. The left arm has completed its journey at the point where it is somewhere between John Daley and the rest of us.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/edshaw/tiger.jpg