bad advice

[mcdizzle$$$]

all right, not to offend any of you teaching pros out there, but the game is just not being taught the correct way these days. first off, look at the amount of people that view "Golf Swing Instruction" on this site as opposed to "short game"
now i fully understand that nothing is more fun than hitting long shots pure and consistent, but this is not the way it should be. golf is played from the green back (this is the one and only way to dramatically lower a score ((also, i know that many of you teaching pros understand this full and well, and this remark was not aimed at you)))

second, many pros and fellow hackers will give advice that has worked well for them in the past. this is all fine and dandy, but with the vast differences in people's swings, different tips work for different people. for instance, when the advice is: one-piece takeaway, wrists cocked at 9:00, coiled resistance at the top of swing, gradually shift weight forward to start downswing, impact looks like adress, right shoulder under chin on follow through, it does nothing but to jumble up the average golfers mind.

i think the game would be taught much better if we worked with peoples natural tendencies instead of trying to resist them so much. (of course, everyone needs to know the basic principals of the game, such as set up and posture and grip) i think that the old rhetoric that you will get much worse before you improve is bull++++. when i work with a golfer he or she will start hitting better shots within the next few swings.

we shouldnt feed our average golfers with the same tips that helped our games improve after hours upon hours out on the course and practice tee.

just think about it. the good golfer isn't out there thinking of a million things when he hits a shot. hes out there thinking of the target or a single consistent swing thought. he has enough confidence in his muscle memory to know that if he sets up well and takes a deep breath, hes going to hit the ball well. hes not thinking of a one piece takeaway and impact looking like address.

id like to see the game taught where if someones slicing it, we strengthen the grip (or another anti-slice tehnique). if someones hooking, we weaken the grip a tad (or another anti-hook tecnique) We dont tell them what we are working on with our own game

sorry this post was so long, this is just one of my pet peeves and i wanted to get it off my chest
id be happy to hear any replies, whether they agree with or contradict with what i say

[ph_kingston]

Re: bad advice

Yes, there's good advice and bad advice and with golf there's always plenty of people willing to offer their opinion. In my opinion everyone needs a grounding in the basic fundamentals of the swing and once these are grasped then it's all fine tuning and this is about trial and error. If someone offers a bit of advice that doesn't fundamentally upset your swing mechanics then give it a try, it either works or it doesn't and it's an extremely personal process.

This reminds me of a quote from Nick Price where he said the golf swing is all about turning a cube of wood into a sphere. Pretty quickly you can chop of the edges and start to make it look spherical but as the years go by your work is reduced to simply polishing.

In that sense I don't agree with grip fixes for hooks and slices. When we all started out playing golf then I'm sure 99% percent of us hit with a slice. By learning the swing fundamentals and training our muscle memory we've been able to eliminate that and maintain a largely neutral grip. It's not about putting an anti-slice fix in place but eliminating the fundamental cause of the slice in the first place.

As for the short game, I work hard on that now I have the swing fundamentals in place and agree that it's of vital importance if you're looking to reduce those scores. For me the short game is all about touch and feel and it's therefore extremely difficult to provide written advice. My coach has a wonderful touch around the greens but his style is unique. When we work together on the short game we try lots of different things using a variety of clubs, stances, grips etc. and test the feel, the flight and the roll of each shot. I then decide to use what worked best for me.

[mcdizzle$$$]

Re: bad advice

i agree with you completely kingston. golf is about as individual and personal a game there is. weve all seen that guy out there who has the oddest swing but produces the lowest scores (like you said, this can definitely be attributed to a solid short game)

i like what you said about a "bit of advice that doesnt fundamentally upset your swing mechanics" I think a lot of golfers take in all these little tidbits of information that conflict with their natural swings. These guys look more like their trying to solve a calculus equation rather than swing a golf club.

i think that a ton of golfers would improve quickly if they just had the correct grip, aim, posture, and ball position. however, most average players overlook this fact and simply try to work on their swings. a good set up will almost inevitably lead to at least a decent shot

[gord962]

Re: bad advice

My two cents:

Most people on here are asking specific advice. I am slicing, how do I fix it? How do I hit longer drives? My irons work fine but I can't figure out my driver, what can I do? The advice in this forum is directed specifically at the questions being asked.

If someone then asks, I want to drop my handicap from a 12 to a 6, the first answer given on this site is work on your short game.

As for fixing a slice with a strong grip, this is not fixing the root of the problem. Most slicers have the same root problem - an outside-in swing. No grip fix will cure an outside-in swing.

Most questions don't have video, so we can only give advice based on the diagnosis. Is the diagnosis always correct? Who's to say, but when the amount of people who write back with success stories as we see here, the people who contributed their personal expereinces and/or the pro's advice are the cure for the particular problem the people asking advice are working on or struggling with.

[fatneck]

Re: bad advice

I think Gords point is spot on.

I imagine I'm like every other member of GTO who will read as much as possible and note all tips and drills to try at the range or on the course. Individually, you can only try and then use what works for you at any given time.

Personally, I'm keen to hear any advice on how folks have got down from say 20 to 10 as thats more likely to reflect my current aims and objectives whereas the advice for single figure players is more fine tuning which is still some way off for me!!

[mcdizzle$$$]

Re: bad advice

you are right gord, and as im new to this forum i should have stated what i was trying to say in a different way. take these tips that you recieve (although make sure they dont contradict what you were working on already) and take them to the PRACTICE TEE. dont expect some miracle tip that you read to immediately translate into a good round on the course. take it to the range and develop the correct motion.

when you get out on the course, you dont want to have to think about these things. to quote Jim Flick, "practice is about mechanics. playing is about feel, rythm, and the target"

[gord962]

Re: bad advice

You are exactly right. The similar approach must be taken for drills. They are meant to exaggerate the feeling of what you should be doing.....

[bonzi_532]

Re: bad advice

mcdizzle...........i dont agree with your little fuss here. This forum is meant to help people with the game of golf. Of course all advice wont work for everyone but with the percent of sucesses and the amount of clients the pros on this site have seen , i would dare say they know what they are talking about. i would tell you to get a grip on your feelings but that contradicts what you have naturally

[vum100]

Re: bad advice

I am still learning this game and am no expert in giving golf instructions but wanted to contribute to this discussion.

If I understand it right mcdizzle, you wanna say that one should be left to find his own "natural" golf swing.

Well, we as humans do develop certain habits naturally like walking and swimming, but in my opinion golf swing requires a lot more rythm and mind-body co-ordination than that, something a lot of people would find hard to achieve.

We might think we have a good swing but when analyzed under a scope, there might be a certain flaw which could also depend upon a thing like your arm and finger length affecting your grip.

As a learner I feel one should have a solid understanding of the fundamentals of this game and the teachers of the game oughta be stressing the point that it takes a lot of practice and patience to develop a good golf swing. But you cannot be thinking of what might go wrong when you are on the top of the swing, cuz if you do then everything can go wrong. All you should be going through your mind is to TRUST and KNOW your ability, and don't expect miracles.

This game isn't called a game of character just like that. It really does test your character when it comes to it :-) Isn't that why we love it.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: bad advice

Mcdizzle,

I like your way of thinking and I suspect you will be a good player if you are not already simply because you can seperate yourself from swing thoughts once they have been grooved the fundimentals. Like me I think you agree that this game is played between the ears 90% of the time, for me it is, but you cannot play the game between the ears if you can't swing the club properly, you must swing on plane to achieve consistancy with your ball striking or you will "Never" be any good (full stop).

However you are completely wrong with your ideas about this site, I agree with Gord, this site has helped me and nearly every decent member, it is true that some things work and some things don't, it down to the individual. Some people expect to much to soon and simply give up on the advice and dismiss it as bad. We are all different and learn in different ways, I'm visual, I need to see myself to understand what I need to do to improve(Camcorders and PCs wow) some players rely on feel they need to change something and hit the shot then repeat that feeling, so you see this site can never be perfect, just great.


Great thread though.....



Ian.,

[TeachingPro]

Re: bad advice

I'd like to say as a teaching pro that the initial post is not quite fair. When someone sits at a computer asking for advice that is a completely different secnario and teaching environment to face-to-face teaching.

Yeah, if I give a lesson of course I can get the student to start hitting better shots from the very next swing. Anybody can do that, I've seen hackers help their friends on the range and get them to hit better shots! That's easy, teaching pros do that 10 hours a day for 6 days a week.

There's no point in posting a reply like: "strengthen your grip" if the poster is asking for advice on how to cure a slice. Man ... you have to find out what's causing the slice becuase there are 7 recongised "errors" that cause a slice and the grip is only 1 of them. What about the other 6 "errors"?

Come down to the range, tell me how to grip the club and I bet you I can still hit the ball straight. Anybody can, provided you can manipulate the hands and wrists during the swing you can still square up. Geez, on tour we used to do all sorts of stupid stuff to keep ourselves occupied ...

It's a proven fact that the grip has nothing to do with face alignment in an efficient swing. Read the book "Swing Factory" for the evidence.

How do you think I and every other pro teaches? We don't always teach theory - we teach what works. You write (I paraphrase here) that posters on GTO give advice that has worked for them or advice that posters are working on thier game. Hello ... where do you think teaching pros get the "advice" from? Believe it or not, we get it from experience that has worked for us and our students. Members of GTO are no different: they give advice that has worked for them.

A good teaching pro identifies which one of the 4 recognised "learners" the students are. They either learn best by: theoretical advice, they copy & imitate, they feel or they learn by drills. Sometimes they are a combination of more than 1. But a teaching pro worth his money will ask or practically discover which method works best and stick with it.

Hogan's 12 fundamentals, cock your wrists, turn your hips 45*, keep the line, keep the arc, flex the left arm ... even when I teach touring pros I don't feed them that theory garbage unless they want it and can understand it.

So, I'd say ... take the advice or leave the advice, that's up to you but everyone has helped a great number of people on GTO. We all try our very best, pros and amateurs alike.

Next, trust me when I say this: very few 15+ handicappers can properly and effectively apply the mental part of the game. Better mental approaches is almost exclusively the domain of the sub-15 handicap players. I've been teaching golf for a LONG time, played on various tours, been scratch since the age of 15 (so that's 21 years) and I have yet to be convinced that someone who scores in the high 80's and above even understands, let alone can apply advanced mental techniques. They are focussed on making better swings and improving their scores.

I'll elaborate if you like ... but I've already posted a lot of text. Briefly: you can do all the mental coaching you like but if the golfer hacks the golf course apart week after week scoring 90's, 100's ... do you really think "focus, relax, visualise, align, prepare, play" is going to help them? Or do you really think staying focussed on the shot at hand is going to help a golfer who scores 120? For every case you show me that it helps, I'll show you 10 years of teaching that proves otherwise.

Do what you like to help them on the mental side ... it won't last unless you first improve their game on the golf course.

That's my 2 Mongolian cents worth.

[TheRighty]

Re: bad advice

God I love this web site!!!

I came to GTO about 2 months ago shooting in the 110's. Now after talking the GTOers here about what was happening on the range, I am now shooting in the mid to low 90's.....in 2 months with no one teaching me golf. I owe alot to the guy (and gals) on here for helping me lower my score and for helping me understand that golf in not just a game of hitting a white ball with really wried sticks, but golf is really a term used to describe time spent with friends.

I don't think about "the swing", hitting the ball, or if my shrit matches my shoes ( ). I think more about having fun on the course with my friends then think about my swing or short game .

I don't know....am a product of GTO and I like it!

[AlanN]

Re: bad advice

Sorry Mcdizzle. Can't agree with your view that you don't have to get worse before getting better. You are oversimplifying matters somewhat.

The golf swing is an unnatural movement and has to be learned. Even the touring pros, who practise hours each day, experience swing problems. When Nick Faldo changed his swing, with the help of David Leadbetter, it took him two years to get it right.

As amateurs, we go from swing fault to swing fault and it is only when we can eradicate the more serious faults that we improve. When making any change to our swing, it takes time to adjust to the feel of a different grip, set up, swing plane etc. Changes affect our feel and rhythm. It is quite normal for our game to deteriorate, until we get familiar with the changes.

[fratorriv]

Re: bad advice

Thanks Teaching Pro! Great post. It's easy to get discouraged when practicing something and it is just not working. This is when we try to blame someone or something else other than ourselves. Kind of tunnel vision with bad results. When this happens then we are desperately in need of a professional instructor.

[Mr_Change]

Re: bad advice

mcdizzle$$$ I don't think i need to add anything else to what others have said. I am sure after reading the replies you have got you have changed your mind.

Yes some people have given bad advice, but it's just advice which means take it or leave it.