Help Please

[thebigman]

Re: Help Please

Get a camera out on course sometime if you can

But if your talking mentally yea probably got it saying trying to hard on course etc. Mechanically a divot left is over the top obviously. Personally when i come over the top its because my shoulders were aiming left from address, so could be alignment. Id just practise emphasin coming inside for a bit. Just a temp hitch, sure we'll see you on tour soon stil ian

seniors that is..

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Help Please

SORTED.......


I tried keeping my right foot a little flatter through impact yesterday, just a fraction longer before following through and it seems to be cured.

I was throwing myself into the ball a little to much with the lower body, I was told to hit the ball then move through, amazingly this helps to come back to the ball more on plane as I was always a little inside on the way down.

Anyone else had this problem.......?

Ian.

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

I know exactly what you were going through. I run into this problem every year. I get a bit lazy on my drills and my natural tendancy to move my weight too much through the ball takes over. I am trying this year to make a consious effort to stay behind the ball.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Help Please

Thanks Gord,

At least I'm not on my own, hitting the ball with the right foot flatter feels a bit strange but I'm sure it will be ok in a month or two.


If you watch some of the pros on video most are completely flat footed or just slightly raising the outer side of the right foot at impact, mine is about 4 inches off the ground.

amazing


Ian.

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

Ian,

Divots going left are the result of what I call - "a bent plane line". In reality, divots from 6 iron to wedge should point to the right of the target line and divots from 5 iron forward should be straight.

Why do the divots point to the right? The low point for every two armed right handed player is the left shoulder. So if you are making Impact before low point - and we do in a proper golf stroke - then the divot should go into the ground. The farther back the ball is played the more to the right the divot will point. It is an assumption that we swing down the target line - but an incorrect one. The club comes from underneath the base of the plane - from the inside - at Impact the thrust of the club is to the outside but when the ball leaves the clubface the face is pointing at target. This is one of the huge illusions in golf - swing to the right and the ball goes straight.

It is also an incorrect assumption that swinging into out produces a draw and that swinging out to in produces a fade. Ball curvature is the result of faulty Hinge Action - of which there are only three.
1. Vertical
2. Angled
3. Horizontal

All of these Hinge Actions produce straight ball flights but vary in trajectory -with Vertical being the highest and Horizontal being the lowest.

The Laws of Force and Motion and Geometry dictate what happens when we swing a golf club or even get out of bed. When these Laws are violated, or fought, then we fall on the ground or in golf the ball doesn't do what we want.

Bottom line- learn to control the hands through educating them. Control the hands you control the clubface, control the clubface you control the ball, control the ball and you control the golf course.

If you would like for me to take a look at your swing, just PM or email me. I just finished a golf school were we had players from coast - New York to LA - and three from Sweden. Once the above concepts were explained and demonstarted the fog was lifted!

Chuck

I find myself helping as much as I can on this site so I think it's time to help me.

Like most other keen golfers I take regular lessons and work hard on my game, however just lately I'm struggling to understand my problem,

Here goes, On video my back swing splits the plane lines in half (perfect), on the down swing I'm just under the lower line (slightly inside), however when I play my divots go to the left (with every club especially wedges) and I've been hitting a slight fade from wedge to driver.

At the range I hit a slight draw with every club, every time, on the course it changes????

Shot in the 70s again on Saturday and could have been under 75, but I'm definatley not comfortable.


Any help would be appreciated.


Ian.

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

Why do the divots point to the right? The low point for every two armed right handed player is the left shoulder.

I disagree - the only way your left shoulder can be the bottom of your swing is if you were swinging with only your left arm.

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

Stand in a doorway with your left shoulder against the jam and left your arms hang down. When the left arm hangs vertically that is the low point. If it is to the right or left of vertical then it is either prior to low point or past low point - basic geometry. The left arm is only in position to pull - swing, the right arm is only in a position to push. The left shoulder is both the low point and the fulcrum for right handed players. The spine is the center of rotation. Now if you only had a right arm then the right shoulder would be the fulcrum and low point.

Hold a pen at either the top or bottom and left it hang down - vertically. That is the low point. Now tilt it either way and notice that the end you're holding is stationary - fulcrum.

chuck

I disagree - the only way your left shoulder can be the bottom of your swing is if you were swinging with only your left arm.

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

When you add the right hand to the club, you have changed the dynamic of what you are explaining. Add the right hand moves the low point to the right. The centre of your swing is much closer to where your heart is located.

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

Nope, take a look at this video to show how the left arm acts like a piece of string and how the action of the right arm moves it from low point back to low point and beyond. http://chuckevansgolf.com/media/exte...on_drill-1.mov

You seem to disagree with everything I have to say and that's ok. The majority of teachers cannot even agree on a proper grip! But why trust theory when there is science.

When you add the right hand to the club, you have changed the dynamic of what you are explaining. Add the right hand moves the low point to the right. The centre of your swing is much closer to where your heart is located.

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

I don't disagree with with everything you say, but we definitely have different views on how to explain certain things. That being said, I have to say I do disagree with the left shoulder being the bottom of the swing. Looking at the video, the bottom sure looked to be inside the shoulder though, which is where I have always been taught where the bottom of the swing is. Using simple physics, the bottom of the swing with only the left hand the bottom of the swing would be straight down from the shoulder. As soon as you add in the right hand, the bottom of the swing is aligned with the spine. When you rotate around the spine, now the bottom of the swing is between the pivot point (spine) and fixed point on the target side (left side for RH golfers).

The reaswon I argue this is because it is common practice to teach proper ball alignment for a driver should be inside the left heel. In a solid stance for a driver, the inside of your heels should be aligned with tyour shoulders. The reason the ball is placed that far forward is so that the ball can be be hit on the upswing.

Thank you for participating in the healthy discussion!

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

OK, so visually you cannot see the straight line that formed from the left shoulder down to ground via the left arm. Unfortunately there are not 200 instructors in the world that have been trained in the science of the golf stroke. Heck the PGA of America has over 26,000 members and apprentices alone! I too was taught all of the stuff we generally read about and see on the golf channel and taught these "theories" until the golf stroke was put to the test in a scientific venue.

Physics dictates the bottom of the arc is the same regardless of whether you use one arm two arms or three arms! The Low point is the Low Point. If in fact the low point was in line with the spine then a player would never take a divot in front of a ball that is forward of the spine.

Ball placement has nothing to do with the feet, it is relative to the low point which is upper body. If you play the ball off the left heel for example and your feet were 6 inches apart then the Impact point of the golf ball would be at, or slightly to the right, of the sternum. But if the feet were as wide as, say Moe Norman, then the Impact point would be several inches outside the left shoulder.

Another very common piece of mis-information is that the Driver is struck on the up stroke. Since my explanations are too technical I'll just say that any shot struck prior to low point is always a descending blow - just another Law and Force and Motion. Now if the ball were positioned outside of low point then yes, the ball would be struck in an ascending blow but the club would also be traveling left of target line so the player would have to make an adjustment in their alignment.

Here is a picture of Impact with a Driver - you'll notice that not only is the shaft leaning forward but the face is "open" and the ball is compressed and has not left the clubface. http://chuckevansgolf.com/images/Impactphoto.gif

I don't disagree with with everything you say, but we definitely have different views on how to explain certain things. That being said, I have to say I do disagree with the left shoulder being the bottom of the swing. Looking at the video, the bottom sure looked to be inside the shoulder though, which is where I have always been taught where the bottom of the swing is. Using simple physics, the bottom of the swing with only the left hand the bottom of the swing would be straight down from the shoulder. As soon as you add in the right hand, the bottom of the swing is aligned with the spine. When you rotate around the spine, now the bottom of the swing is between the pivot point (spine) and fixed point on the target side (left side for RH golfers).

The reaswon I argue this is because it is common practice to teach proper ball alignment for a driver should be inside the left heel. In a solid stance for a driver, the inside of your heels should be aligned with tyour shoulders. The reason the ball is placed that far forward is so that the ball can be be hit on the upswing.

Thank you for participating in the healthy discussion!

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Help Please

[QUOTE=chuckevans]Ian,

Divots going left are the result of what I call - "a bent plane line". In reality, divots from 6 iron to wedge should point to the right of the target line and divots from 5 iron forward should be straight.

Thanks Chuck,

So basically my swing is opposite to a correct swing, wow all those years wasted..............

My original question was: On video I split the plane line on the back swing and I am only sligtly inside comming back to the ball, and I hit a very slight draw at the end of the flight. When I play on the course my flight moves to a slight push or fade and my divots are pointing to the right about two inches after impact, what can cause this change......??


p.s unfortunatley I don't have a video of my swing, my PC is at work.

Thanks

Ian.

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

When practicing do you lay down clubs for alignment and ball position? If so when you get to the course we can't use these aids. If the divots are in front of the ball and pointing to the right then you're on the right track. The push and fade come from an "under roll" of the clubface which in turn is the hands not doing their job. They are too slow from Impact to separation and when the ball leaves the clubface it is pointing in the direction of the flight.

Another form of mis-information about the golf stroke is that the ball starts off in the direction of the downstroke path. This is absolutey incorrect. The ball practially always leaves the clubface at right angles. So clubface determines initial ball direction and curvature. When I demonstrate this players cannot believe it since we have all been told about how the swing path gives starting direction.

Gary Wiren and I were doing a clinic together at the Golf Magazine Top 100 School two years ago and Gary said, "My only contribution to golf is that I invented the ball flight laws". I said, "Gary, you know they are incorrect don't you"? He looked at me and asked me to explain and when I finished he said yes, "you're right but the ones we teach are good enough for the general public".

Bottom line Ian, work on educating your hands to reproduce what you want the clubface to do.

chuck



[QUOTE=Ian Hancock]

Ian,

Divots going left are the result of what I call - "a bent plane line". In reality, divots from 6 iron to wedge should point to the right of the target line and divots from 5 iron forward should be straight.

Thanks Chuck,

So basically my swing is opposite to a correct swing, wow all those years wasted..............

My original question was: On video I split the plane line on the back swing and I am only sligtly inside comming back to the ball, and I hit a very slight draw at the end of the flight. When I play on the course my flight moves to a slight push or fade and my divots are pointing to the right about two inches after impact, what can cause this change......??


p.s unfortunatley I don't have a video of my swing, my PC is at work.

Thanks

Ian.

[gord962]

Re: Help Please

Sorry, Chuck, I do't want to dispute what you said, just to clarify.

Are you saying that the path of the club does not determine the initial direction of the ball?

[chuckevans]

Re: Help Please

Gord, that is correct. The direction, and curvature, of the ball is dictated by the clubface. Can the path of the club determine initial ball direction, yes, but to a much smaller degree. The biggest factor is clubface. I have players that always seem to think that just because the ball starts left that they have swung from outside to in. Video clearly shows that these players were on plane and that clubface was the cause. The ball will practically always leave the clubface at right angles, hence starting direction controlled by the clubface. In fact the British PGA, after an article that I wrote about this, investigated and published their findings on the their members site confirming what I had already told them.

I have put on many a demo showing how a player can swing severely off plane and start the ball where the clubface is pointed at separation.

Sorry, Chuck, I do't want to dispute what you said, just to clarify.

Are you saying that the path of the club does not determine the initial direction of the ball?