Confused: Is this right or what?

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Auldyn,

I plan to do that. Thanks for the suggestion. Question...does the book give specific instruction and drills for each method beyond what the May '05 Golf Digest excerpt of that book does? I assume yes, but wanted to check.

The Golf Digest article gives two drills specific drills for one-plane method and one for the two-plane, and I need a whole lot more help than that !! Thanks.

[auldyn]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Hi, The book is pretty good and is 109 pages long. It does give fairly detailed instruction on both swings. To be quite honest I think 25 or so pages would have been more than adequate. But as I said I have noticed improvement in my ball striking. It does dispose of some very old myths etc. Give it a try.

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

I will do that. Thanks!!

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Jim Hardy is a leading teacher in the one plane swing. Hank Haney is Jims' student, and Tigers' swing coach. You do the math.

The one plane swing requires a great deal of flexibility. The more flexible you are, the more power you'll be able to generate, and the further you'll hit the ball.

Thus, as you get older, your distances will drop of due to lost flexibility.

For this reason I became a 2 plane swinger. I played baseball for years (a perfect example of a one plane swing), and the one plane was my natural swing. But I realized that if I learned to swing 2 plane, that my distance wouldn't be as limited by my flexibility (or lack thereof).

[jscerbo]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

What he is saying is that the left arm and shoulder do not initiate the down swing. The lower body starts first, then the upper body follows. The last thing to change direction is the club. Most golfers unwind their upper torso first, this happens because they are trying to hit the ball with too much effort. This throws the right shoulder out. The right shoulder swings under not around. The left arm is connected to the upper body isn't it? Then it moves with the upper torso. Simple anatomy. Every golf tip you read typically will never apply to you.

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

jscerbo,

I read with interest Jim Hardy's "The Plane Truth of the Golf Swing" excerpts in May Golf Digest. I am now committed (we'll see how long it lasts!) to the one-plane golf swing. His teaching of the downswing for the one-plane has it starting with the hips, but then immediately followed by the rapid turning of the left shoulder and entire torso, on-plane, with the arms and hands entirely passive while being pulled through the ball by the unwinding torso. In this swing, the right shoulder still turns under, and not around, but the swing clearly starts (again, just slightly after the hip unwind) with the left shoulder.

Are you saying that for a one-plane swinger that is performing this swing properly, that this isn't what occurs? The confusion that golf instruction generates "out there" just blows my mind. I suppose it's due to the complexity of the body movements and the difference that the game's greatest players have in their swings, but it sure is frustrating for someone trying to "perfect" a golf swing. It also means to me "buyer beware" when choosing an instructor because even a basic physical concept like Hardy is teaching (shoulders start the downswing on one-plane swing to "catch up" to the hips, which had only rotated 45 degrees) is totally contrary to, say what an "arm-swinger" would teach. It's almost as if a student must thoroughly "screen" the teacher.

Do you understand the frustration the "buying public" has about this?? I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.

[Simon Woo]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

sevesteve, you can't be more right on this. My coach teaches the natural golf technique, but whenever I go to the forums or read up on articles, it's almost always the classic swing? So now I don't even know what I should be doing :P All I know is that I need to change something about my swing so that I can get more than 100m on my 7 iron! :P

[89imf]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...ingplane6.html

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

If I'm not mistaken, the concept of the one plane swing is relatively new. Therefore, the majority of golf instruction is aimed at the classic or two plane swing.

For example, my post 'Tips from T.C., C.P.G.A. Pro', are all tips for the two plane swing (especially tips about what the hands/arms are doing, and how the downswing should work).

But there are some common features to both swings:

Both need the hips to remain in the box - that is, the hips need to twist, not slide.

The shoulders still need to make a full rotation.

Grip pressure should still be as loose as possible without dropping the club.



@ Simon Woo: You should try my table drill to check for a slide vs a coil. You'll add two clubs by resolving this problem (in other words, your 9 iron will go 100m).

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Simon Woo,

Based on what I know, if you are learning the Natural swing and it seems to be helping your game and/or you have confidence in your teacher and also that the method fits with your own attributes, I'd read/learn/practice all I could about the specifics of that swing, and ignore/don't read the articles and forum conversations on any other full-swing method. If your game is improving and you are enjoying the process, stick with it.

My father and brother both have recently taken instruction in the Natural swing and it seems to be working for them and they are enjoying the learning process and is giving them confidence in their game. The worst thing they could do, in my opinion, is to start mixing it with other methods and fundamentals (arm-swing vs body-initiated vs upright posture vs bowed vs strong grip vs weak grip vs flat wrist vs cupped wrist vs finish high vs finish medium vs take it back low vs take it back slightly to the inside, vs square stance vs slightly open stance, etc. etc. etc....the list is endless) that may or may not be taught as part of the Natural method. The amount of information out there on virtually every aspect of the swing is overwhelming, and one can become thoroughly confused and bewildered by attempting to incorporate the Golf magazine tip or drill of the month by the latest guru into their particular swing.

Best we can do is to find something that works for us and that leads to both improvement and enjoyment of our games. I suppose finding that method, sticking to it, and then having the discipline to ignore most of the "competing" advice is the only way to stay sane about the experience of learning and playing golf. Good luck!!

[Simon Woo]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Very interesting article. Will thoroughly digest it first, but I suspect I might be more inclined to go with the two-plane swing :P

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

To paraphrase Jim Hardy in his book "The Plane Truth for Golfers" - which deals with both swings relatively fairly (Jim is a one plane advocet, after all):

If you're flexible, strong, agressive, explosive - the one plane swing is for you. If you're a good dancer, are graceful, have good timing and rhythm, the two plane swing is yours

I had to try both swings to figure out what would work for me. I'd say that after 3 days at the range, trying different things out, I'm primarily a one planer (years of baseball and hockey must have influenced that). That said, I do incorporate some two plane things into my swing. Now, whether or not it's good for my swing long term remains to be seen. But all I know is that I've got accuracy like I've never had before...


**Note: the quote from Jim is a paraphrase. If I can find the book (I borrowed it) I'll amend the quote. **

[Simon Woo]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Our local (Singapore) paper featured an article on Tiger Wood's swing two days ago. Correct me if I am wrong, is he changing from a two-plane to a one-plane swing?

LowPost42, I got the impression that if you are flexible, the two-plane swing is more suitable? The impression is that the one-plane swing will be more suitable when one gets on with the years?

When I started my lesson, my instructor always tried to correct my swing, saying that my swing was too steep. I am wonder now if he was trying to teach us the natural golf, one-plane swing - while I was more naturally inclined to execute the two-plane swing?

[sevesteve]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

Simon Woo,

Tiger has in fact switched to a one-plane swing...that was the buzz behind his "swing change" several years ago. You might notice Tiger has added alot of muscle to his upper body (chest, shoulders, abdominals) while at same time staying very lean, and I suspect, very flexible. This is because the one-plane swing requires both upper body strength and flexibility, as well as solid leg strength underneath. Tiger has all of these attributes, compared to, say, Davis Love or David Toms, who are more built for the two-plane swing and both effectively use it. In my opinion, Tiger will as a result of the change win more than with the old, as the one-plane is, by design, a more consistent swing IF the player has the strength and flexibility to properly execute it. We all have heard about Tiger's work ethic and he will continue to add strength and flexibility to his physique so his game will become even longer and more consistent in the coming years.

Flexibility and strength are both important to the one-plane, and since both of these characteristics tend to decrease in most people as they age (without a concentrated training program), the two-plane swing is "easier", physically (in terms of strength and flexibility), to execute, and thus often a better match as one gets up in years or for a middle-ager or more "out-of-shape" person taking up the game. This doesn't mean the two-planer is easy, but rather that the physical demands of the swing can be met by more people than the one-plane swing.

Don't confuse the Natural swing with the one-plane...they are clearly different and although they may share some fundamentals, they are otherwise unrelated. You won't see any professionals on TV using the Natural, as it is fairly unorthodox, yet it is becoming more popular for beginners or experienced golfers looking for an "easier" way to swing. If you want to see the Natural swing, you'll need to pick up a book or video on that particular method or take lessons from a teacher trained to teach it.

Incidentally, Vijay Singh and Ernie Els also use the one-plane swings. We have all heard about Vijay's work habits, both on the range and in the weight room. Well much of those work habits have to do with building the right body (core strength and flexibility) to execute the one-plane. Like Tiger, Vijay will only get better as long as his body "holds up". Being 41 or 42 years old will not limit his abilities in the next 6 or 8 years because he is so dedicated to strength and fitness.

[LowPost42]

Re: Confused: Is this right or what?

LowPost42, I got the impression that if you are flexible, the two-plane swing is more suitable? The impression is that the one-plane swing will be more suitable when one gets on with the years?

When I started my lesson, my instructor always tried to correct my swing, saying that my swing was too steep. I am wonder now if he was trying to teach us the natural golf, one-plane swing - while I was more naturally inclined to execute the two-plane swing?

The more flexible you are, the better the one plane swing works. Most Long Drive golfers use a one plane swing, and talk about the X factor. This is the differential between the shoulders and hips. The greater the differential, the more potential for power.

I'm not very flexible, but swing one plane anyway (mostly because that's what feels most natural and 'proper' to me). If I were to increase my flexibility, I would theoretically increase my distance, as I would be able to generate more torque in my body.

As for your instructor, you may actually be too steep. But, if he's teaching a one-plane swing, then you'll certainly seem too steep. The other thing to check is if he figures you're laid off at the top or not. A one plane swing seems laid off compared to a two plane swing.

If your natural tendency is to be steep, go find a two plane instructor. (It shouldn't be that hard).