how to cure an outside in swing

[pnearn]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Have a read of this article by John Dunigan

http://www.golfbetterproductions.com...mmer-201-3.asp

This is the quote from the article

The most destructive, yet most widely taught way to start the downswing is to rotate the hips toward the target. I believe that this singular instruction is the reason why the average golf score hasn’t improved since, well, forever. Once you understand the swing plane concept and the plane shift inherent to the swing, it is absolutely clear that if you really do start down with any sort of rotation, your hands and club will instantly move out farther away from the original plane rather than down toward it. If you rotate toward the target, your hands must follow in the same direction. Unless you have the flexibility of Tiger Woods or David Duval, as soon as you rotate your hips, you will create an immediate chain reaction that can only pull your club the wrong way. Your hips pull your shoulders, which are immediately followed by your arms and hands. This move can’t possibly make your arms, hands and club move down toward the original plane. That should be clear by now. The easiest way to return the club to the original plane is to push the club back down onto it using your hands and arms.

This is ostensibly exactly the same way I swing the club and am hitting real good distance this year

It must be said that there is no right way here (I disagree with Dunigans assesment that the hips are wrong and agree with you Mr Change that is a very viable way to transition), however it is my view that for most amateurs the hip move is very difficult to do right unless youre hitting 200 balls a day on the range which most of us dont. I just think this is another option for people to try to get the right movement coming down

[Ian Hancock]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Pnearn,

A very interesting article, however I agree with all the top teachers regarding the hips, if you look at your reflection from behind and take the club to the top..............move your hips first and the club drops straight away onto a shallower plane ready for impact.

Personally I think this is the key move in the golf swing, get the hips going first and your cannot slice the ball.

Ian.

[Simon Woo]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

I think the difference here is whether you start by rotating your hip, or shifting it towards the target. I tend to agree, if the first move is to rotate the hips, then you are destroying your plane immediately and introduce a whole hosts of problems.

[pnearn]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Ian

The point im (probably badly ) trying to make is that IMHO the correct movement of the hips in the transition is a difficult thing for many amateurs to get right. It also needs some level of timing to slide the hips then release the shoulders/arms/hands. How many times do you see people just spin out with the hips or bump aggressively leading them to fall in front and lunge at the ball

The 'pull down' approach is much simpler. Just drop the hands and arms onto the right plane (right elbow into right side) and through the ball, like swinging the handle in a big U shape. I think for a lot of people (myself included) this is a much easier move to master

[Ian Hancock]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

I take your point, however I think the problem lies with 'control' when you are learning the swing we (including me) like to control each movement, which is correct as we are engraining the particular move into out memory.

Now to the hips when you swing correctly (my opinion) your should have a meeting of the left hip (pocket) and the right elbow at impact, this done correctly takes away the "control" eliment of the swing that beginners feel they need to hit the ball.

When you swing correctly you should feel a little more natural (and a little worried that control is lost) however the ball should go deadly straight with awesome power.

Gregs right hand drill promotes this exact action and impact.

P.s just let everything go through without any control and you will see.

http://members.cox.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

http://members.cox.net/gregjwillis/LESSON3.htm

have a look.


Ian.

[Garp]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Very interesting discussion. I have this constant dilemma of on the one hand use the "pull the right hand down" and the " start with the lateral move of the left knee". I found out that the first option works best when playing a round, I might still pull the ball but overall it's ok. On the range I find that moving the left knee works sometimes well but, as mentioned, it tends to be too jerky which makes my whole body follow too early. Only in ideal circumstances and with a lot of effort I can manage to separate upper and lower body but it's omething I don't dare to do on the course. I have this idea that I want to do it the proper way, starting with the lower body, but when I pull down and importantly keep my head behind the ball at impact I can obtain relatively good precision and distance. For my own game I know that when I'm using this method I have to be relatively high with my hands at the top of my backswing with the shoulders fully rotated. Pulling down from that position works well in most cases, my impact position feels about the same in both cases.
Cheers.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Hi Garp,

This is a miss-conception you do not seperate the halfs of the body, you simply drive the hips around (not sliding) the arms will natually come down together at the same time.

It is hard to explain this move, that is not really a move at all, the hips must be spun out on the downswing at the same speed as the arms...................the problem is you will feel totally out of control at first until you become confident in your ability to hit the ball, without the 'control' feeling.

Don't get drawn into thowing the hips forward, this is wrong, just rotate them quickly........as I said before the right elbow should meet the right hip pocket at the same time......IMPACT.


Good luck and give it a go.


Ian.

[pnearn]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Garp

My bad shot with my "pull down" transition approach is a pull but this is a fault of being too steep on the downswing (in my case). I have to make sure I really turn to the inside properly, almost as if my left arm is pointing straight behind me

Try really getting to the inside whilts maintaining the width and see if that alleviates the pull

And DO try the hips as Ian says, if that can work for you it is probably the best method, just doesnt work for me

[Garp]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Thanks guys. I hope to get away with the hips rotation one day.

Just like Pnearn my bad shot with the pulling down start is a pull (sounds logic?) and this comes in play when I fail to complete the full shoulder turn. Thanks again for the help. Cheers.

[Mr_Change]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

A pull shot is caused by an outside to in swing path, and closing the clubface to the same line and that the club is traveling.

[Simon Woo]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

Thanks pnearn for that article by John Dunigan. This is exactly what my instructor is teaching us. Use the hands to bring the club down back to the plane, and then use the hands to whip through the ball. No hips, no shoulders. They will follow the arms because of the tremendous speed you can generate just using the hands and arms. If done correctly, you can hardly come OTT and slice the ball.

I've seen how my instructor hits the ball. You hardly see any shoulder and hip movements, but he can easily hit 165yds with my cheap 7 iron

Personally, I do feel that a rotation of the hips can help to bring the hands down, but like someone pointed out, that might introduce a lot more points of errors, especially for a beginner.

[Mr_Change]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

I haven't been quite clear with what I am trying to say on this topic. This is my understanding of swinging a club.

2 plane swing

On a 2 plane you move everything away together and from hip high when you complete your shoulder turn you lift your arms above your shoulders.

2 plane swingers starting with hands will not get enough time to drop to the lower plan and will swing from the outside in.

1 plane swing

On a 1 plane swing you move everything away together once at hip high instead of lifting your arms when completing your shoulder turn you stay on the plane and swing around your shoulders.

1 plane swingers already on plane don't need to drop to the lower plane, they can start their downswing with their hands and will come back on plane.

I myself am speaking from my own experience. I was a classic 1 plane swinger with my irons but would take my driver back to a higher plane. As I was using my arms to start my downswing I would get a draw with my irons and a slice with my driver. I now use a 2 plane swing for my irons and I hit slightly bigger draws with my irons and even though my driver is straighter I have a slice but one that goes down my target line then fades right. but it is better than my pull slices.

[pnearn]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

OK, so Im going to correct myself a little here. Have been fascinated by this discussion so went to the range this morning and spent a long time trying to 'feel' exactly how I transitioned so that I could best describe it

Well I now thing 'pulling down' is not a cause but an effect, its what I feel is happening but its not how I cause it. However I do NOT conciously move the lower body

When I get to the top my shoulders are fully turned and my wrists cocked and the weight is on my right side. What I actually feel from here is that all I do is hold the wrist angle and thats it! By doing nothing my weight naturally re-centres as my body re-balances itself and because of this my arms are pulled down. It feels like a small pause but its actually the lower body starting to unwind. From there I just release the shoulders/arms/hands through the ball to a full finish

So the small pause where I dont try and force a movement is actually the action that causes the weight to move. By holding my wrist angle I ensure my arms dont start down early or cast from the top. From that small pause I then throw the whole thing back through the ball

So there you go. By doing nothing at all but pausing and holding the wrists I feel as though my arms are pulled down by the weight re-centering. Theres no forced hip bump or knee movement which may throw me off balance

Interesting stuff !

[colby7]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

well thanks for all the replies people, i will be honest in that i have'nt been on in a while so reading through all this and then trying to take bits onto the course will no doubt end in tears, but everything is there to come back to, the last couple of weeks i have been playing quite a bit and i have cured the problem by just moving back a little at address and slowing down my backswing gradually and to be honest just going out and playing and trying not to think about it too much, now i can hit 8 out of 10 drives straight (always have to scuff a couple), i played 9 holes last nite on a par36 and went round in 43 and a couple of days before that in a 45, so it works for me and i'm now starting to appreciate what a great game this is

[indianagolf]

Re: how to cure an outside in swing

get to the range...throw a club down along a swing path that is grossly pointed back along your back foot...have your club head follow that back....you may start snap hooking a few..this will be a tendancy...adjust as necassary....the main thing is you start the club head imediately moving back and in
(club head take-away)
x=ball
0=clubehead
X 0
0
0
0



as opposed to

X 0 0
0
0
0

try this..let me know