Help with spinning out on downswing

[almostscratch]

Hi Guys,

I am new to this forum and I really hope you can help me out. I am a student of the game, much like yourselves. I feel that I am very close to getting to the next level with my swing, except for one thing I cannot figure out.

I have been having a lot of problems with my transition and impact. When I put my swing on video, my backswing is fine, but as soon as I make my transition my shoulders seem to turn too quickly. By the time the club is halfway down on the downswing, my shoulders are back to their starting position while my arms lag behind.

If you look at this link http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/80234/1/2789455

the fourth frame on the top Tiger's shoulders are still slightly closed with his arms still inside of his shoulders. My shoulders would be square already with the arms lagging behind.


At impact, my shoulders are now slightly open (instead of square/slightly closed) and I am forced to flip the club to get a decent shot out of it. As well,

If you look at the link again, on the second frame on the bottom where Tiger is at impact both arms are extended. My right arm fails to fully extend here as it is lagging so far behind.

I hit the ball solid and am consistent (I am about a 3 handicap), but kills me to see this on video and I think it is holding my swing back.

I have tried several instructors and worked on everything to no avail. I have tried bumping more laterally with the hips, dropping my hands, holding the right shoulder back for a second, swinging to right field (ie. hard inside/out), etc.

I feel like I cannot stop my shoulders from making this first move no matter what I do.

What are your thoughts and or suggestions on this problem. Thanks for your help!

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi Guys,

One more thing that I forgot to add. The only thing that seemed to work for me is starting the downswing with my left hip turning first before my shoulders or arms moved. This was the only way I could find that my shoulders would not outrace my arms. Otherwise, I would start the downswing my hips, shoulders and arms moving at the same time, which left my arms way behind (since my hips and shoulders only need to move about eight to twelve inches in the downswing, where my arms need to move a few feet). Is this thought correct?

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

I have been fighting this too and there is something that has helped me, I am not sure why, but an instructor showed me this and since you have a video camera you have nothing to loose but a little time on the range.

If you look at the video you are speaking of you will probably see that you have no extension after the shot, no space between arms and body the frame after impact. So what I did was put a ball on the ground in front of the ball I am hitting about 8 or so inches and 2 inches or so inside of it. This makes sure I dont come inside to quick and gives me extension. it also stops my shoulders from spinning out but I dont know why. Try that and put it on tape, worst you could is loose a little time which is no big deal.

Look at that swing you are talking about, I would be curious to hear if you have extension the frame after impact.

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

I know exactly what you are talking about. I took a look at the video and I noticed that as well, I just flip my hands and come inside too fast instead of extending after impact. I always hear about tour players trying to "swing left" or "exit left" after impact, which may be the case if you are having your arms run away from your body inside to out. However, I agree that this is more of a slap across the ball with the flip of the hands. I will definitely try out your drill and see how it goes.

Any thoughts about the left hip turning in the transition first?

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

try that first and PUT IT ON TAPE, if you are a 3 handicap then there must be a lot right in your swing. just try that and put it on tape, then go from there. BTW, the arms lagging, THAT IS ME TOO, but not in that drill.

[nickwbryant]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Almostscratch - i am suprised at 3 handicap you are suffering from this problem. I guess you play with a fade most of the time?

On your shoulders - they should be open at impact (go look at pictures of any top pro), if they are square or closed that is what causes flipping of the hands. They need to be open to give the arms room to swing.

Sounds like your problem is you are coming over the top slightly. I would look to solve this problem by checking your backswing out first. If you cross the line at the top the natural reaction of the body is to recover by coming back over the top. I find it hard to believe at 3 handicap that your leg action would be bad. I suffer a little with this problem over the top problem and solve it by not letting my backswing get too long and by starting the downswing with a hip turn.

nick

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your analysis. That is the funny thing about my particular problem, my backswing is good but it is a slight spin out over the ball. It is like Michael Campbell's old swing, circa 1995 where his arms get slighly outside of his body. I do indeed hit a bit of a fade, and at times get steep on it. However, I have been able to time this move over time and it is relatively consistent. To take my game to the next level it needs to be fixed.

Interesting about your analysis regarding the open shoulders at impact, I had really never seen a pro with open shoulders at impact beyond a few degrees. However, in my case regardless of impact I know that my shoulders are rotating too fast and are too open at least halfway through the downswing as I no longer see my chest at that point, where good players and the pros still show much of chest. I will try out your tip as well and let you know. Thanks!

[Simon Woo]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi almostscratch,

Do you tend to push/slice the ball? I think it's great that you manage to get your handicap down so low - probably you have really learnt to adapt and compensate for this through the years. In any case, I must say it's pretty impressive

They always say, the followthrough is usually a mirror of the backswing/downswing, so I am guessing you might be coming too much from the outside and therefore "spinning round" after impact. But again, it's commendable that you have learnt to time your hands so well to get consistent straight shots.

I believe the downswing should be started with a lateral shift/bump of the hips instead of purely with rotation. Have you tried that? That should help you slow down the hip and shoulder turn so that your hands can catch up?

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi Simon,

Thanks for your advice. I have been toying with that idea very seriously, and it seems to work on occasion. However, combined with the first tip (about putting a ball eight inches in front, two inches inside) of the ball and swing outside of that it has been much better.

Maybe I overexaggerated my "spinning out" problem. When I say spinning out, I mean that I am maybe one inch above my plane line on the downswing, which causes me to flip a little bit at impact. I generally hit a straight fade, but sometimes a bit of a pull. I have developed this over this over the past three or four years, and am trying to work it out. I will try this out though. Thanks!

[shootin4par]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

almost, have you put it on tape yet?
I dont think consciously slowing anything down is going to solve it. Put the thing on tape with the ball where I told you and get back to us on it. And if you dont have a camcorder, get one, it is the best investment for the game.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hmmmmm

You have videoed your swing, your shoulders are open at frame 4.......!!

You hit a slight fade more often than not.

I may be totally wrong but heres my 2 cents................................

Your a good consistant player but never been a big hitter, but have a steady attitude to life and the game with a good rhythmic swing..................ok so far..............then read on.

I think you are suffering with a simple lack of shoulder turn at the start of the swing.ie your arms go first setting you a little flat at the top, a more rounded swing, thus spining on the downswing and cutting back to the inside in the followthrough a little earlier than normal (whatever that is suppose to be).

With a quicker shoulder turn at the start you will have your back to the target quicker, thus on the way back you will be a little later.

The game of golf is all about opposites, turn back-turn through, then your mind starts to do it for you and upsets the rhythm, don't read to much into it, try hitting 20 ball without any thoughts at all, and get a friend to video one of thoses swings without you knowing which one, you may be supprised, it's not as bad as you think.

Hope this helps.


Ian.

[nickwbryant]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Almostscratch - I see, so you have your shoulders open much earlier than the pro's do. (by the way if you go to golf digest pages they have tons of swings on there showing the pro's open shoulders at impact).

A good cure of this one, which may have been suggested above, is to start your downswing with a small hip bump and but feel as if you are keeping your back facing the target. This guarantees you legs are ahead of your shoulders and is a thought I go to if I am coming over top. A nice slow hip bump (tiny movement really) then unwind. Another tip is to feel your right side is coming under rather than around. Hope these help. At 3 you are obviously a good player as it is so we are only talking fine tuning here.

nick

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi Guys,

Wow, you have all been very helpful. I went to the range yesterday and here is the results.

I did the drill that I beleive shootinforpar suggested, with the ball eight inches ahead and two inches forward of my ball. I put this on tape and there was a big improvement in the video. Instead of the cut I hit, I hit a draw which was what I was looking for.

However, by combining this drill with the small hip shift first (instead of having everything fire at once from the top), this kept my shoulders back for the fraction of the second that I needed. Now, halfway through the downswing you can see my chest, and at impact I have nice extension. It was a small change, but a needed one.

As for the tip about turning my shoulders, my backswing is actually fine. You are correct that I am not a huge hitter. I would keep up with the Justin Leonards rather than Tiger's out there.

But, I think the reason I got to this point is this. I was a serious player some years ago, and had alot of formal instruction. However, the instructor I worked with focused on the backswing only. He was a Ben Hogan/Hank Haney devotee who believed that if you make a good backswing, you just need to swing down to create a good shot. Thus, there was no focus on the downswing.

I played college golf but quit after college as I was frustrated that I could not break through the plateau I had reached. I put the clubs down, and a few years ago picked them up again with a video camera. It was the best investment I have ever made.

My backswing looked great, but my downswing was, like I said, not quite right. It was about an inch above plane on the way down, with my shoulders square halfway down and slightly open at impact. This forced me to flip the club to keep it on plane at impact and just after impact. Thus, I began to cut the ball more than a draw. I have spent years searching on the internet trying to find out how to fix this problem, and I am glad I joined this forum in that I am on the way to solving it now.

So, that is my story. I will upload a video of my swing if I can figure out how to get it on my computer. I really appreciate your help and will keep you all posted. Thanks!

[almostscratch]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

Hi Guys,

Ok, here is another very detailed swing concept that maybe we can discuss. It again involves the downswing, and specifically where the arms/hands should fall or drop (ie. the "slot").

Now, I have been struggling with two competing concepts. The first is that the arms and hands should drop to the "inside" on the way down. However, this can cause players to "get stuck" and then be forced to flip and/or spin out on it to hit a good shot. This can be grooved over time, but leaves the player inconsistent. In this scenario, on the downswing the arms and hands would approach from "inside" the logo on your shirt (assuming it is over your left pectoral).

However, a friend of mine told me that the arms should drop "in front" of the body, even though this feels more vertical. Here, the arms would drop over the logo of the left shirt, with the left arm being paralell to the foot line (as opposed to inside the foot line for the "stuck" position). According to him, this would help get the arms in front of the body and allow them to release and extend naturally without having to flip or over rotate the shoulders to hit a good shot.

What are your thoughts on this? Again, my old swing coach never dealt with the downswing concepts, so I am still learning what is right and what is not.

[ChadCash]

Re: Help with spinning out on downswing

This may sound too simple to be true but I believe if you get a good weight shift and have a good transition then you shouldn't have to worry about the slot it would come automatically. I am not a low of a handicap as you (I am a 4.4) but the transition and weight shift don't happen naturally for most it is something I constantly work on and it only happens over time. Good backswing, good weight shift, bump the hips and the hands fall into the slot.