How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

[Dariusz J.]

Gents,

I am a new member to this Forum. Having read some of the posts I do believe there are a lot of golf swing experts here and, therefore, would like to share with my biggest problem and ask for some advices.

My problem is that I simply can't play a fade shot (especially with mid- and short irons); I have a strong inside-out swing path (between 3 and 8 degrees) and relatively quick swing tempo (ca. 0.9-1.15 sec depending on the club); my clubhead speed is rather serious (ca. 110-115 with the driver and ca. 90-95 mph with my 5 iron); I play non-offset irons with correct lies. My normal swing with a square or slightly open face resuts with a draw (sometimes too large one), opening the stance results in still in-to-out pattern and a strong pull-draw (even worse). Opening the clubface more (up to 10 degrees) causes usually a weak straight push or push-draw and it's not so comfortable since it's not natural for me to play irons with so open a face.

I was trying to achieve (on purpose) an OTT move and found it very difficult for me; practically, I am able to hit only the driver with out-to-in swing pattern without a serious endeavour; what is even more interesting, the driver is the only club that I can control and can play either draw or fade on request provided my swing is much slower and much less powerful than usually (on purpose again).

I forgot to say something about my grip: although I started to play golf (over 4 years ago) with interlocking grip, I changed it after 1st year to baseball one which is much more comfortable and reliable for me; the grip is rather neutral ('V' on my left hand points in the middle of my face and my right shoulder, while 'V' of my right hand points even at my face).

Why I need a fade ? First of all, I don't want to change nothing in my alignment and set-up; I am a decent iron striker and both my trajectory as well as quality of strokes are pretty good. However, my draws are not good approach shots because of 2 reasons: a) our greens are relatively hard and progressive rotation of the ball makes it almost impossible to stop the ball there (even if the landing area in in the front of the green); b) our greens are rather small and I am usually missing them left again due to draws. I know that having a fade can cause me to miss it right but I doubt I will be ever able to play so big a fade as my draws are with my severe inside-out swing pattern. Last, but not least it's nice to know that one is able to hit it straight to the target without thinking how to compensate what's inevitable - a strong draw, by either opening the clubface or aiming right of the target or delaying to open my hips and shoulders as much as I can just before impact.

Would be grateful for sharing with any ideas, thank you in advance.

Dariusz

[Ian Hancock]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Hi Dariusz,

I suspect you have a short cricketers swing, i.e inside going back but short enough to stay on a good plane back through. So it going to be hard for you.

The difference between the two ball flights happens at the top of the swing, you either drop down inside or you push out from the top.

I suggest you try the pumping drill.

http://www.progolflesson.com/drills/pump.wmv

This should help you.

Ian.

[nickwbryant]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Dariusz - sounds like you have a powerful swing there and you will be pleased to hear that fading from this type of swing, whilst tricky - is very do-able - just check out Fred Couples and Lee Trevino for two people who played their life like this (so did Jack Nicklaus and Greg Norman to a lesser extent for much of their career). I have a tendency to swing in to out but i tend to play a fade especially with my driver for control. To do this I open my stance, grip very hard with my top hand and and fire away, never letting my bottom hand cross my top till well past impact.

I think part of your problem will be your baseball grip. For your swing speed this grip might not offer you enough control and your bottom hand will be overpowering your top and and turning the club over. It's up to you whether you can be bothered with the effort of grip change but if you want to get as good as you can, no modern pro uses the baseball grip and hardly any great ones over history have i think thats proof enough that the grip is not ideal.

good luck

nick

[Dariusz J.]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Ian,

Thanks for your input.

The difference between the two ball flights happens at the top of the swing, you either drop down inside or you push out from the top

What do you mean by this statement ? Seems as one can vary his shots depending on the first movement of arms...sorry, I don't understand it...


I suggest you try the pumping drill.

http://www.progolflesson.com/drills/pump.wmv

Unfortunately, I can't get access to view this drill





Nick,

Thanks for your input as well.

Yes, I thought about changing the grip as well before, tried two remaining ones, i.e. overlapping and interlocking; overlapping is not for myself, because I got relatively small hands and fell uncomfortable with it; to change back to interlocking is not a problem for me, but tried it too without any success - path and ball pattern remains the same.
Moreover, IMHO grip change would not influence the downswing path - it can help with changing face angle during impact eventually - but I've already learnt to hit with slightly open face (because I had to), however, with my strong inside downswing path I still hit draws (the only difference is that the ball starts a little bit right of the target) - BTW, this is the best and most accurate pattern of my iron shots nowadays which brings me closest to the target.

As I alredy told, to hit a fade with my driver is not a problem for me, too. I do exactly the same as you when I need to play a fade with my driver. Unfortunately, I can do it only with my driver so far.

Last but not least, I am not so familiar as you with former PGA players types of swing, but I always thought that e.g. Lee Trevino played punch-like shots with a closed face...may be wrong with this as well...

Thanks,

Dariusz

[msklar92]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

You may need to change the set up a little.

Ball slightly more foward in your stance and open your stance a little. Keep the club head square to the target or just slightly right of it. try and hold on to the club more so it doesn't release on the follow through. Its going to feel like more of a cut shot.

[nickwbryant]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Dariusz - Trevino had that type of swing but he hit everything with a fade.

Grip changes can influence takeaway path and thus downswing path - however is there anyway you can post your swing so we can look at it? we could be more accurate in our assessments then.

If you can fade with your driver and not your irons its possible the clubs are not set up correctly for you as well.

nick

[shootin4par]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

You may need to change the set up a little.

Ball slightly more foward in your stance and open your stance a little. Keep the club head square to the target or just slightly right of it. try and hold on to the club more so it doesn't release on the follow through. Its going to feel like more of a cut shot.

msklar great post!!!
first response that had anything to do with ball position. Sounds like, if he can play the shot with a driver he has that moved off his left foot and with the other clubs too far back, where the path is really inside out.

Darius, what is your height and weight? what is your ball position on a wedge, 8 iron, 5 iron. H

[Dariusz J.]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

OK, Gents, thanks Step by step now:


Ian,

Found access to the 'pumping drill' on my home PC; I will try it during next days on a golf simulator and will post if it helps me or not. Thanks again.


Msklar and Shooting4Par,

I know all the theories with opening the stance and moving the ball forward in order to obtain a fade; the problem is that it does not work for me - I still have an inside-out downswing path (upswing path is usually square, not inside though) and a closed face during impact; maybe it will sound stupid, but it appears to me that because I am facing the left of the target, my ball will go even further left (what exactly happens) - can be just a lack-of-belief syndrome

Now the funniest part for you, I guess: when I want to play a fade with my driver, I am PUTTING THE BALL BACK (NOT FORWARD) in my stance (more or less like for 7 iron) which delivers the driver's face OPEN (say, 5 - 10 degrees open) because with the same swing pattern I just don't have time to close the head before impact. My usual draw pattern is being achieved when I put the ball near my left foot (heel), therefore, more forward.

My ball positions are: 5 iron - exactly in half way between my left foot (heel) and the middle of my stance; 8 iron - just a little left of the middle of the stance; wedges - depends on the shot: either just a little back than the middle (for 3/4 shots) or near right foot (heel) for huge backspin bump&run shots or close to my left foot for bunker/heavy rough shots and flops.

My height is 173 cm (5'8") and weight 85 kg (athletic bodybuild).



Nick,

I'll try to post it - a good idea; how can I do it here ?


Thanks all

[shootin4par]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

You are asking for help, and sometimes it is hard to ask questions without seeming a litttle rude, so please dont take anything that way.
So what is your ball flight pattern with a 8 iron, 5 iron. Starts right and draws back, starts left? why is putting the ball back for a fade so funny? One thing, sounds as if you move the ball around in your stance way too much. Wedges should not be behind center. moving the ball position around as much as you do will confuse your body and mind. If you know all the theories as you say then why is the ball moving around so much? it is now starting to sound more and more like ball position might really be a big part of your problem.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

I'll go with my first post this guy must have a cricketers swing, i.e very short back and through on a good but very strong inside path, I have a friend exactly the same plays off single figure, can't hit a fade to save his life.

Playing the ball back in your stance causes a fade in a fashion but all you are doing is arriving at the ball abit early with an open face.

You are the same height as me and i'm resonably flat at the top, but this is correct for a short person, feel free to look at my swing in the gallery.

The only answer is to change your backswing to a more on plane takeaway and use the pumping drill to get yourself on a more outside approach to the ball, she exagerates a slice swing at the start of the clip, this is what you need to feel to achieve a fade.

Or like my friend work with what you have especially if it's natural and you are comfortable with it.


Ian.

[Dariusz J.]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Shooting4Par:

No worries about being rude, mate. I feel you guys can really bring help to many golfers, therefore, I feel obliged to answer your questions as well as I can

Back to your questions: my flight pattern (standard one, i.e. if I hit the ball without thinking) with all my irons is very similar. If I deliver the clubhead square to the target the ball starts square and draws slowly left more or less in the mid point of its flight and lands ca. 10% left of the target); if I deliver a closed face the ball starts left and draws more left and a bit sooner and lands ca. 25-30% left of the target; when I deliver the face slightly open (up to 2-4% open - my favourite shot) the ball starts slightly right and curves back to left at the very end of the flight leaving my ball more or less 5% left of the target.
Trajectory patterns are OK for me, not very high and not too low.

Now, moving the ball in my stance too much - yes, I do agree, however, it is a result of my searches to find better plane. If my swing plane was between 1 and 3 degrees inside (ideal, I believe) I would limit variations in moving the ball for sure.
One thing more - I tend to disagree with your statement concerning wedges. IMHO, the more the ball is back in the stance the stepper is the swing and the more spin a ball gets as a result. I love to hit my bump&runs this way because it's much easier to predict where the ball stops on the green after choosing the spot of landing.
Thanks.



Ian,

Will communicate you the results of pumping drill after weekend excercises. Thanks.

[nickwbryant]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Dariusz J - I have to slightly disagree with the thought that ball position is causing the problem. One can move the ball quite a bit in the stance and still hit good shots - as you said if you want to spin a wedge you move it behind centre. Where your ball is in your stance is related to what kind of shot you want to hit.

Having read the posts again its clear to me that the basic problem is that you cannot deliver the clubface open to your path ie it keeps turning over and you have a closed clubface at impact. That is the whol crux of this problem and so we have to fix that if you want to hit a fade. As i mentioned earlier i do not think your baseball grip is condusive to having an open face at impact and i would work on using the interlock (as you stated a preference) and maybe weakening it a touch.

If you wnat a fade to become your standard shot i would head to the range and weaken my grip progressivly until the shots started fading. If you weaken your grip and still cant hit fades (or slices!) then the closed clubface is a function of your swing and you need to revisit the fundamentals again as Ian mentioned.

nick

[shootin4par]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

sounds as if you have a VERY flat swing, would this assumption be correct? Also, your weight at address favors the balls or heels of your feet? I am trying to build your swing in my head, so right now no response to your reply. Do you ever hit a wedge shot fat? what is your handicap? Do you set up with a lot of forward shaft lean, little shaft lean, no shaft lean? Is your rear elbow bent slightly at address?

[Dariusz J.]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

Nick,

I don't want a fade to become my pattern shot; what I want is to weaken my inside-out path to such a degree that I can have both draws and fades in my arsenal. In theory, I know what to do to hit fade - in practice, I tend to claim that simply it's impossible to play fade with such a strong inside-out path.
I'll think once again the question of changing the grip...maybe there is something in it, as you said.


Shootin4Par,

Yes, I have a relatively flat swing - wouldn't say VERY FLAT (seen a few flatter ones);
my weight in address - rather favours toes than heels, although I always check if I can waggle my toes before swing;
yes, I hit wedges fat sometimes, much more often fat than thin - shanks practically never happen to me;
my current HCP index is 13.7;
I set with a little shaft lean now, used to set with bigger lean before;
my elbows - left is very straight, right is just a tad bent, but almost straight too (I am righthander).

Thanks

[shootin4par]

Re: How to get rid of too strong in-to-out path ?

if you want to weaken the inside out pattern first you need to get more upright. now your weight position will hinder that. I will post later something I wrote and have saved on my computer at home that goes more into detail. Basically, Hogan was shorter and put his weight on his heels, this helps to swing more upright and helps stop the clubhead from flipping to the inside, you may think he was flat but look at his CLUB HEAD path. . If your weight is too much on your balls then YOU WILL NEVER swing more upright no matter what you try. Subconscious movements dictate this. at address you need to be able to lift the BALLS of your feet without too much effort. Your fat wedges are caused by premature release and because the ball is that far back you HAVE to release prematurly. You are inhibiting your natural release. at address have left arm touching your peck, right elbow touching ribcage, this will allow your shoulders to be square at address without having to do anything funky. I will post more for you later