Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

[pnearn]

Im wondering if someone can help solve a debate between myself and my golf partners

I maintain that constant accelaration of the clubhead into the ball will produce a faster swing speed than that of a player who applies force from the top. My pal argues that is how 'hitters' hit the ball so far and guys like Daly/Huehne hit the ball so far. His view is these big guys dont swing, they hit but get away with it due to their stregth and flexibility

Now im sure i've read somewhere some science stuff that proved to me that if you make sure the first 3rd of the downswing is smooth (rather than a 'hit' from the top) then centrifugal force and constant accelration transmitted to the club through loose arms/wrists produces a faster speed as the body uncoils than an aggressive hit impulse

If I hit from the top I dont get anywhere near as much distance as when I make sure Im slow and smooth starting down but my pal swears the opposite

Are we both right?

[Allen Drummond]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

You are both right.
We often hear "swing speed" (already assuming clean, staight contact) is the key to golf ball distance. In reality its acceleration. Acceleration increases the time the club head is in contact with the ball. Strength is "A" key to generating high acceleration of the club head. However some people believe you get this by flexing your arm muscles HARD on the club. In reality you lose the ability to accelerate. Your friend is right in that it does take strength. But you are right because you can not apply it the way he claims. The physics is pretty simple but I'll leave to the proffesionals how to create an efficient golf swing to maximize acceration.

Here is the reason:
Sorry for the math and long-winded explanation but its sort of what I do for a living.
F is force.
M is mass.
A is acceleration.
V is velocity.
t is time.
d means delta or the change of a quantity.
F = MA , force equals mass times acceleration,
and A = dV/dt which is the change in velocity over time.
Therefore F = M * dV/dt.
Moving the time component to the other side we have
F * dt = M * dV.
So what?
The M in the above equation is the golf ball which is a fixed quanity.
The dV is the acceleration of the golf ball (which we want to be big).
The F is the amount of force from the club head is limited by a players strength (no really, strength).
The dt is the total amount of time that the force is applied to the mass (golf ball).
The equation says that for a given force (F) and a given mass (M) the only way to increase the accelaration (dV) is to increase the time the club head is applied to the ball.
WHAT?
A given player has a limited amount of force they can generate with the club head. This force may be applied through a constant velocity of the club head (swing speed) or through acceleration (increasing swing speed).
From Newton's laws of motion we know that, at the moment of collision, the club head will slow down and the golf ball will accelerate.
If the club head is at a constant velocity at time of impact then it slows down away from the ball as the ball jumps away from the club and the time of impact is short. If the club head is accelerating sufficiently through impact the club head still slows down away from the ball but it will still be accelerating (though a little less) and trying to catch up to the ball. This causes an increase in the contact time between club head and ball resulting in an increased ball acceleration (MORE DISTANCE!).

Allen

[shootin4par]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

Lets call big john daly a dump truck filled with sand
lets call garcia a souped up ferrari

dump truck drives at 120 mph and lets foot off the gas as it hits a brick wall, do you think brick wall at 120 has much effect on the dump trucks speed?

ferrari, hits wall at 120 while foot is still mashed on the gas, do you think it will decelerate much? maybe a little more then dump truck but not much

in golf it is about how we get through the ball without loosing much speed that dictates distance.

[pnearn]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

Lets call big john daly a dump truck filled with sand
lets call garcia a souped up ferrari

dump truck drives at 120 mph and lets foot off the gas as it hits a brick wall, do you think brick wall at 120 has much effect on the dump trucks speed?

ferrari, hits wall at 120 while foot is still mashed on the gas, do you think it will decelerate much? maybe a little more then dump truck but not much

in golf it is about how we get through the ball without loosing much speed that dictates distance.

Which is kind of why I think the swingers and hitters argument holds water. For an averagly built guy like myself, my optimal method of generating swing speed is the constant accelaration to impact. i.e a swing through the ball where speed is built from centrifugal force. A very well well built guy who can apply strength (Daly etc) can afford to hit early and translate that power. If they can combine strength with a smooth accelaration .. bang

[shootin4par]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

a great swing to look at would be Jason Gore. He combines speed and power very well. Look at how short his backswing is. He accelerates through the shot while having a lot bahind it. He is the dump truck with a pedal to the metal

Allen, good post because some people relate well to it broken down into pure fact of the matter, or mass+velocity+accleration+time. Many golfers dont realize that with bad impact you can actually slow down 15+mph between imact and seperation.

[pnearn]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

I have a theory and wonder whether anyone shares it?

If you break the forward swing into 4 stages

Stage1 - From the top to halfway down
Stage2 - From halfway down to impact
Stage3 - From impact to half way through
Stage4 - From half way through to full finish

Now its my contention that 80% of amateurs (and I include myself here as I spent years doing this and still fight it) apply the 'hit' impulse at stage1, which means the club is decelrating by stage 2 and slowing down almost completely by stage3. This is why you see so many guys fail to get to the full finish position as they have spent all the speed too early.

However I guess if you are strong enough you can still carry enough speed to stage2/3 but my view is that would only be a very small %age of us

This also explains why one would hit half swings so well as they start from stage2 so cant fail to accelerate at the right time

I try hard to focus on having the most accelaration in stage3. This makes stage1 almost feel like nothing but gravity or a gentle turn is starting the club down. It is completely counter-intuitive to what your brain is telling you to do hence why I think it is so difficult to learn and for amatuers to master and beat that 'hit' instinct, but thats why pro's swings look so smooth from the top.

Here's a drill I use for this on the range

http://www.golfcircuit.com/instruction/tip.asp?id=15

When you get this right, you truly feel effortless power and once you have found that you'll never want to 'hit' again

[vp27519]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

Hi Pnearn,

I have been taught that stage 2 is where acceleration should start. It's hard though not wanting to cream it from stage one. If I was to focus on accelaration at the correct point, ie stage 2, I have no doubt that I would fix my loop at the top.

Good thread - very technical (physics wise)

[pnearn]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

Thanks VP

Yes, I struggle too with the hit impulse and as soon as I do then bad things happen, such as throwing the shoulders over the top or making too much of a violent lower body movement. I feel i hit it great when im not hit trying to hit it at all but once you see that looooong fairway in front of you your brain instinctively wants to muscle the ball out there

I think knowing through physics that this IS the wrong way to build clubhead speed starts to eat further away at the impulse for me. Maybe one day it will disappear but right now I find myself always fighting it for at least 3 or 4 holds in a round (esp in winter where you dont the carry and roll)

[msklar92]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

i could be wrong, but i think the biggest factor in achieving maximal swing speed is to swing on plane. any deviation outside the swing plane is inefficient movement and a loss of energy. in terms of distance, I think the other biggest factor is to hit the ball on the screws.

[nemofishy]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

i could be wrong, but i think the biggest factor in achieving maximal swing speed is to swing on plane. any deviation outside the swing plane is inefficient movement and a loss of energy. in terms of distance, I think the other biggest factor is to hit the ball on the screws.

Yeah you are wrong

If you swing on plane you should hit a straight shot - swing under your plane line with a closed clubface and you will hit a draw, thus producing top spin which results in an increase in distance.

Conversly a fade will rob you of distnace - but make the ball stop quicker.

[Started2k3]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

Yeah you are wrong

If you swing on plane you should hit a straight shot - swing under your plane line with a closed clubface and you will hit a draw, thus producing top spin which results in an increase in distance.

Conversly a fade will rob you of distnace - but make the ball stop quicker.

Top spin will kill your distance.

The draw's backspin may be less than the fade's backspin, which, all other things being equal, will affect distance.

[nemofishy]

Re: Swing Speed. Strength or Swing?

that's what i meant

cough