My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

[Martin Levac]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

Eastley, this is for you:

Swinging a hammer to drive a nail. Swingin an axe to cut a tree. Swinging a baseball bat to strike a baseball. Swinging a pickaxe to break stone. Swinging a sword to cut flesh. Swinging a drumstick to strike a drum. Swinging a flyswatter to swat a fly.

Now apply whatever you wrote about "winding up a coil" or "gaining a fluid motion" or "letting the downswing go" to any swing listed above. If it doesn't make sense for those swings, why should it make any sense for the golf swing?


ML

[pinyo8]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

I personally think that the backswing is important and agree that it helps you to create a virtual line back to the ball. I know that I picture myself drawing an imaginary circle around my body when I swing. And this goes for the example that Martin gave especially for hitting still objects (axe, hammer, etc) as you want to aim what you are going to be hitting. On top of that, when you do perform a backswing, you are building up tension in your body to allow it to release this which in turns create power. I dont think you can do this if you were to be static. Otherwise, why wouldnt we see more golfers just skip the backswing and just setup at the top where the slot should be, and swing from there? I know that I do this when I practice to get muscle memory of where a good position is at the top. Again, this is only my opinion. It may not work for other people.

[nickwbryant]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

"The backswing is completely unimportant except for one thing: Its purpose is to achieve a precise position at the top that will allow you to begin the downswing properly.

The downswing is what is truly important. That's where you generate power and accuracy. Thing is, you can't generate power and accuracy if you don't achieve this precise position at the top of the backswing because it is that precise position at the top that allows you to generate power and accuracy on the downswing."

Martin - from your post - its seems you are saying that the backswing is unimportant - except that without reaching the position at the top that it achieves you wont be able to get power and accuracy. That seems a pretty good case for keeping a backswing to me!! I understand what you are saying (sounds similar to the swing factory, Leslie King teachings). I think it would have been better to say the main aim of the backswing is to achieve this position. Certainly if the backswing was only about achieving a set position at the top the pro's wouldn't bother with it...but they all do.

All those actions you mentioned do have a backswing of sorts (certainly if you are to get most power into strikes) so i am not quite sure what you are saying?

Not attacking you or anything just want to understand your thinking

cheers

nick

[shootin4par]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

back swing trumps down swing, period!. when My back swing is bad I hit it 250-260, when it is on plane I hit it 25+ yards farther, easy, and WAY more accurate. I put a guy on plane on monday by changing his set up, they guy was hittin 140 yd pw's last night with a smooth tempo. The two biggest reasons people dont improve. 1. a faulty set up and 2. a bad back swing. All the glory comes at impact so most people focus on transition and impact. All this stuff about thinking of the transition, most people are unaware that if they coil properly, their lower body will AUTOMATICALLY initiate the down swing before the club even reaches the top

[Martin Levac]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

NickBryant, I did learn some things from L. King's lessons. Here is a general idea of how I think.

The ultimate goal in the game of golf is to send a ball to a target using a club. The universe being what it is, the ball must be struck with great precision with the club, otherwise it doesn't go where we want. Striking the ball with great precision is what I refer to as proper impact.

The what and why, one thing at a time.

The purpose of the golf swing is to swing the club in such a fashion to produce proper impact. Proper impact is in the center of the clubface with the clubface square to its path or, if you prefer, square to the target line.

The purpose of the address position is to ultimately achieve proper impact following the downswing. It is a position of preparation.

The purpose of the backswing is to move the club into a precise position that allows the downswing to begin properly. One thing must be achieved: A precise position at the top of the backswing. This is a motion of preparation, just like address is a position of preparation. It does not need to generate power since there's no need for power to achieve this precise position at the top. It does not need to be precise or exact between address and top of the backswing unless you count the precise position that it must produce. All roads lead to Paris and Paris in this case is the precise position that allows the downswing to begin properly.

In between the backswing and the downswing is this precise position. I call it the slot. The purpose of this precise position, the slot, is to allow the downswing to begin properly. Some may call this position the transition move but I don't quite understand how a position can be defined as a transition move since a position is static while a transition move is a motion. Perhaps this transition move others refer to is considered distinct and separate from the backswing/downswing and that's where the confusion comes from. Like so: backswing/transition/downswing. I think of this transition move as an inherent part of the downswing so that might also be the reason why it could be confusing. I think like this: backswing/position/downswing.

The purpose of the downswing is to accelerate the club in such a fashion to achieve proper impact. Two things must be achieved: Great speed (or appropriate speed if need be) and great precision. This motion is the one where everything comes together for the ultimate goal: Proper impact.

In terms of position, only two are important: Address position and top of the backswing position.

In terms of motion, only one is important: The downswing.

The importance of these two positions and that motion is directly proportional to their respective purpose.

So, address position is intended to ultimately achieve proper impact. From address position, the backswing is intended to produce a precise position that allows the downswing to begin properly. From this precise position, the downswing is intended to produce proper impact. From proper impact, it is intended to send the ball where we want. Put all this together and you have a golf swing.

What must I do, what for and when. No more, no less.

That's basically how I think and it allows me to eliminate everything and anything that might prevent me from sending the ball where I want.

I have two clips of Bobby Jones swinging a club in slow motion and I can distinctly see that the backswing is on a different plane than the downswing yet he was arguably the greatest player of his time. It follows that his backswing must have allowed him to begin the downswing properly, regardless of how he moved on the backswing.


ML

[Martin Levac]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

Forgot to add.

Building tension is akin to stretching an elastic. The generation of power in the golf swing comes from flexing muscles, not from stretching some elastic part of the body in some way.

[Neil18]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

Nice swing Rich. You are right though. Clubhead is inside your hands a third of the way back, leading to your flatness. If you want to change it, keep the clubhead outside your hands a fraction on the backswing. If you find that tricky, think of keeping the butt-end of the club pointing at your right thigh. That should keep the clubhead out there.

Moving on from there, if you freeze the first Quicktime (from behind) where your hands are level with the middle of your chest, the club is pointing way out beyond the ball toward the driving range wall. It needs to be pointing toward the ball to get on a marginally more upright plane. Once you get used to keeping your hands outside the club head, you'll need to start feeling like you swing up more. There should be a point about two-thirds of the way back where you feel weightlessness in the club, and that should marry up with the butt of the club pointing at the ball = on plane.

Following on from the slight (because it is only slight) flatness is the reduction in lag the closer the clubhead gets to the ball, and a more flicky style of impact. My guess is you're trying to get rid of that annoying little slice by rolling your wrists through impact, especially with longer irons, which actually has the opposite effect, and you occasinally pull you're shorter irons.

Work on getting the clubhead outside your hands and swing up through the weightlessness point. If you can get the top of your swing a touch higher, it means you can get the botton of the arc a touch lower/closer to your body (equal/opposite reaction). Once you get that feeling of swinging your hands back under your chin (that's where they started!) you'll find you can hang on to your lag for what will seem like ages at first, then impact becomes a right handed, almost tennis like forehand = bye bye ball, like an arrow!

See if you can find a video of David Howell swinging. He's on the 35th Ryder Cup DVD if you can get hold of it. I think you'll find a few similarities.

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Whoa! Monsieur Levac! I love that people think about the golf swing as much as I, so in the interests of healthy debate, read on:

Fully agree with everything up to your statement of the purpose of the address position.

The purpose of the address position is to:

a) Create a stable, solid base around which to swing
b) Create a spine angle that will form the core of the swing that matches your height to the loft and lie of your clubs.

The wording of:

"The purpose of the address position is to ultimately achieve proper impact following the downswing"

is not entirely accurate, and a bit confusing as this statement doesn't really say much, and I hope you can elaborate in your response. Address is related to good impact by keeping a constant spine angle and a stable base (points a) and b) above). If you look at a few top pros (I'm talking about consistently good ball strikers - not all of them are) at address and note all the basics - feet, knees, hips, shoulders, arms, eyes all square and parallel to the target line, then look at the same pros at impact position, you see some differences. In some, the shoulders are more square, with the hips marginally open. In others the hips are very open with the shoulders marginally so (add to this umpteen variations in style), but their spine angle is the same, and their "base" has remained stable. In a sense it is a position for preparation, but more for consistency.

"The purpose of the backswing is to move the club into a precise position that allows the downswing to begin properly"

Kind of. But if that were totally true it would be called a golf "move" not a golf "swing". A good golf swing is all about motion, momentum and timing. The backSWING is (after address fundamentals) the chief killer of most peoples golf swing. If I have read your comments right, you're saying that you can pretty much do whatever you like on the way back, as long as you get in the slot. This is not the case, and the reason for this follows on to your understanding of the "position" at the top. Again, poor communication of golf technique, be it on TV, in literature, or in person, is to blame. When the "position" at the top is mentioned, it is not, ever, static. In a fluid golf swing that builds up momentum, you only pass through positions, you never stop at them. Hence why it is correctly referred to as a "transition". Where the top of the backswing is being reached by the torso and arms, so at the same time the bottom half begins to gradually and smoothly unwind. This results in the club/clubhead changing direction from the backswing to the downswing and gives the illusion of a brief pause. If you look at a swing in slow-motion, the clubhead pauses. But that's because you're looking at it in slow motion.

The only two times in the swing when you're static is at address, and at the finish.

"It does not need to generate power since there's no need for power to achieve this precise position at the top"

Following on from the above, the backswing does not GENERATE power, but it does store it. If you stand still, bolt upright, hold your right arm out at should height to the side and then turn it (just your arm) behind you, you have indeed achieved a position. Now do the same thing but by coiling your body to put your arm behind you. Your arm ends up in the same position, but your core has stored power. No power is used to get to this position, just a turning of the body and a SWINGING of the arms. The power generation is for the benefit of the downswing and impact, not the backswing.

"It does not need to be precise or exact between address and top of the backswing unless you count the precise position that it must produce. All roads lead to Paris and Paris in this case is the precise position that allows the downswing to begin properly"

Stating that the backswing does not need to be precise is true. Again, look at one pro's backswing to another. They're all different. And yes, all roads do lead to Paris and Paris in the backswing. But in a flowing golf swing, it's the direction you leave Paris that is determined but the direction in which you entered it. Anything else is just compensation and far too much like hard work to strike the ball with any power and intended direction.

"In terms of motion, only one is important: The downswing."

Motion must go from start to finish of a golf swing. It's physics. The motion is the swing from start to finish. Backswing, transtion, downswing, follow through. All are the motion. Compartments of the same motion, but all one motion. The motion passes through positions.

"In terms of position, only two are important: Address position and top of the backswing position.

In terms of motion, only one is important: The downswing.

The importance of these two positions and that motion is directly proportional to their respective purpose"

Up to now, I have resisted the temptation to write anything remotely approaching taking the mickey. This is, after all, for serious golfers, by a serious golfer. But please read the above 3 statements again and tell me what they mean. I have no idea!

"What must I do, what for and when. No more, no less"...........Indeed!

"I have two clips of Bobby Jones swinging a club in slow motion and I can distinctly see that the backswing is on a different plane than the downswing yet he was arguably the greatest player of his time"

I believe I have the same two clips of Bobby Jones (one from the rear and one looking face on). Yup. His backswing is actually marginally flatter than his downswing. However, consider that he was using hickory shafted clubs with heavy wooden heads which meant that it was easier to attack the ball from the inside and draw it. The swing has evolved by 75 - 80 years from these clips. If you copied that exact motion with a steel shafted modern long iron, you'd pull it, slice it or shank it. Greatest player of his time? Arguably, yes. Greatest swinger of the club? Not by a long stretch. Outstanding hand-eye co-ordination? Definately. Great scorer? Must have been.

It follows that his backswing must have allowed him to begin the downswing properly, regardless of how he moved on the backswing.

For him it did. But by modern coaching standards it's hideous and would be thrown out of court as a good example of modern technique.

His hips and shoulders are open at address.

Half way back he's flat as a pancake. His left heel is already several inches off the ground.

At the top, his overswing must be inspirational to John Daly, and if you watch closely, he actually lets the grip come away from his left hand, and he regrips the club! A tip you'll find in all modern coaching DVDs.

His right hip shoots forward from the top resulting in the body being unwound waaaaaaaaaay before his arms can come through - queue a powerless cut with a modern club.

Nice finish though, Bobby.

http://www.golfswing.com/proswings/jonesrear.htm

Have a look here if anyone reading this has not seen Mr Jones' swing.

On your little afterthought: "Building tension is akin to stretching an elastic. The generation of power in the golf swing comes from flexing muscles, not from stretching some elastic part of the body in some way" - in a golf swing, the generation of power does most certainly not come from tensing muscles. Tense muscles destroy rhythm and timing and the flow of energy and power. A relaxed muscle reacts quicker than a tense muscle. Just ask Bruce Lee. the one inch punch king. Absolutely no tension until a fraction before impact leading to maximum energy released at exactly the right point. Coil and resist. Don't stretch and tense.

Best regards

Neil

[Martin Levac]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

Neil, have you ever thought of technique when walking? Have you ever thought of putting that technique into words so that you could teach walking to others? If it looks and sounds too complex for me to understand, it probably is too complex for me to understand. I do understand, I just think it serves me no purpose to understand it. I can play music with a few instruments, I'm very good with the drums, yet I don't even know how to read music.

We're all a bunch of autistic golfers. We don't know how to explain how we do it but we still send the ball to the target with reasonable accuracy. How can that be?

I prefer to think in terms of purpose, it makes my life so much simpler.

Is it important to know how to go from one place to another? More to the point, is it more important to know how to get somewhere than it is to know where to go?

Is it more important to strike the ball with great speed or to strike the ball with great accuracy?

What is the purpose of the golf swing? To send a ball to a target using a club.

An argument could be made that to send a ball to a target, one must strike the ball with great speed as well. I reply that I have 14 clubs in my bag, each of which allows me to send the ball to a different distance with the same effort.

Since I dial in the appropriate distance through club selection and not through changing my swing, all that is truly important is to strike the ball with great accuracy.

Apply this same line of though to each part of the golf swing to make things simpler. Address>backswing>position>downswing.

What if I want to send the ball a shorter distance? No problem. Before trying to manufacture shots, learn to send the ball straight. Once you have mastered the straight shot, learn something else.

How come there are so many different techniques being taught by professionals? Don't they teach the same thing? Don't golfers have the same common purpose? I think they just don't know how to teach what they know.

I did not say "tensing muscles", I said flexing muscles. Building up a coil is just like stretching an elastic, it makes no sense to say that about the body. The body does not work in that fashion, it is not an elastic. In order to apply force, one must flex muscles. To give you an example of how little sense it makes, get into position, let go. I don't mean let go with all you've got, I mean let go of all muscle tension without applying any force at all. Rely only on whatever coil you wound up at the top. Let's see how much power you can generate then. No wait, let's just see how you can stay on your feet. That's how ridiculous the coil analogy is.

Neil, technique is so much less important than its intended purpose. Once you realise this, you focus on what and why and only mention how if and when it suits the purpose.

An example of technique applied properly based exclusively on its intended purpose.

Maintaining the head as still as possible.

What is the purpose of that?

The purpose of maintaining the head as still as possible is to ultimately achieve proper impact. By our very nature, we use our eyes to aim. What do we aim for if not the ball? The target? Sure, but we must first strike the ball with great accuracy before we can send it to the target. Since we use our eyes to aim and the eyes are in the head, it follows that in order to strike the ball with great accuracy, we must maintain the head as still as possible. When must we maintain the head as still as possible and for how long? Obviously, we don't need such accuracy on the backswing or after impact. We still need some on the backswing but not as much as on the downswing, when it truly matters. So, maintain the head as still as possible but more so at the beginning of the downswing, during the downswing and through impact.

Putting this technique's relative importance in perspective.

Is it more important than keeping a constant spine angle? Is it more important than any other technique? I think so. If any other technique prevents me from maintaining the head as still as possible, it will drive me away from my ultimate goal: Sending the ball to the target.

It would be logical to state that all other techniques I use are derived from this master technique and by extension, less important. Keeping a constant spine angle? I don't care, I don't even think about that and if that's what happens when I swing, whatever as long as I achieve my ultimate goal. All I think about is to move in a fashion to produce great accuracy and speed while maintaining the head as still as possible.


ML

[Neil18]

Re: My Swing Feb 2006 - HELP!! please

Martin,

- If someone asked you to flex your bicep, what would you do? If the same person asked you to tense it, what would you do? Same difference.

- Muscles are like elastic. If they aren't, why should we STRETCH before exercise? If they weren't. we'd all snap as soon as we tried to move! When you COIL your backswing, the pull you can feel in your left side and back is the stretching of the muscles. Not the flexing of the muscles. If you don't feel that pull there's no stored power.

- I agree. Letting go should have no effort at all. It's all about the speed and accuracy of a circle around the body, which the body cannot do efficiently by forcing it.

- What ever you do, Martin, must work for you. However if you develop a problem, you can't just look at your position at the top, or how still you keep your head. If you personally can think of your swing in this way and fade it, draw it, high or low, then you must be doing alot of other things than simply getting to a position at the top and keeping your head still. If it were that easy, we'd all shoot level par and Mr T Woods wouldn't be as rich as he is.

- In the golf swing, why is the same as how.

- Maintain the head as still as possible? Again. Misleading. People hear this and think "right, don't move it an inch". To hit a decent ball, everyone must move their head, but only in a lateral movement. If you don't move your head laterally, you haven't got any width or power to your swing. Up and down head movement, however, is a serious no no.

- The golf swing is a holistic movement. It doesn't work without some help from the rest of the body at the right time in the right way. The right way varies from person to person, but only if each part is complimented correctly by other parts. E.g. if Tiger Woods stood as close to the ball as Jim Furyk and tried to swing with his own swing, God knows what would happen. However Jim is fine because holistically, the rest of his swing suits standing closer to the ball.

- With regard to technique being less important than its' intended purpose, I understand. Thinking about the ball going to the target is easier and will work much more often than thinking about your technique whilst you're trying to send the ball to the target. However, improvement in technique will allow you to think about the target more exclusively, and lead to better results.

Neil