Straight left arm?

[IOP]

I cannot take the club back to parallel without breaking my left arm.
I am not flexible enough in the shoulder to keep it straight.

My question is. Is it more important to only take the club
back as far as I can with a straight left arm and lose distance?
Or is it ok to take the club back to parallel?

Doug

[GregJWillis]

Re: Straight left arm?

A littel break is ok as long as you have made a full rotation back with your shoulders. Cheating a rotation using just your arms and letting them fold around your body is bad, very bad. So check your chest's position at the top. Are you facing directly behind your targert?

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: Straight left arm?

Left arm straightness on the back swing will be relative to each individual. Some will be straighter than others. It has to do with flexability, which again is relative to the individual. That is why it is so important to warm up/stretch before swinging a club as much as possible to generate as much flexability as possible in an individual's swing. Some golfers will have picture perfect swings back, down, and through the ball. Others will not, but as long as the club head impacts the ball at a square, right angle to the intended target line, while sending the ball a consistant, decent distance, with the various clubs, is all that really matters. GJS

[IOP]

Re: Straight left arm?

I had my wife watch me today. I was not fully rotating my sholders.
So I took my backswing back till I did fully rotate. When I did I could
feel a stretch in my left oblique area.

So I hit a few balls into a net in my yard taking the club back till
I felt the stretch and it seems like I am hitting the ball firmer. I will
try it out on the course Monday. Thanks for the replies.

I will post the results.

Doug

[chessbum]

Re: Straight left arm?

To me, even more important is that the left arm IS straight, with the back of the left hand facing the target, just approaching impact and at impact. It is also very important to maintain a connection between the left arm and body at impact all the while keeping the hands low.

It is very easy to totally blow the swing by letting you left arm assume the "chicken wing" position, a very weak position.

Right or wrong?

Chessbum...

[GoNavy]

Re: Straight left arm?

You will probably get some debate on this, but for what is worth, here is opinion on this left arm business. If you try to keep your left arm straight either going back, coming down, at impact or after, you are going to put your hands in control of swing, and that is a bad thing in my opinion, and is what causes the chickenwing (right hand overpowers the left). If you swing the arms back and through, as if there was a fifty pound weight at the end, centrifuge force alone will keep that arm straight, the feel is as though you are always reaching for the head of the club and your hands and body are just going along for the ride. This has the added benifit of coiling your body, as opposed to turning it on your own, which does nothing. This coupled with a good grip for clubface alignment and weight move back on backswing, forward towards the hole as you swing down, keeps the path correct. Try to muscle it, and you destroy this relationship, your swing slows down and you are using your hands to try and make it up, your left arm brakes down, your weight stops shifting. Any number of bad shots can happen. Of course there is much more to the golf swing, but if you get this one concept down, it fixes a lot of things in a swing.

[chessbum]

Re: Straight left arm?

Dear GoNavy,

Thanks for the comments, but I guess I disagree, 100%. Here's why. If you review Greg Willis right hand drill, he EXPLICITY states "the left arm and club are in one staight piece". Check out the photo shown in his drill to see this. Also, if you were to swing as if there were a 50 pound weight tied at the end of the club, you would never be able to maintain the "cupped position" in the back of the right hand. This cupped position has to be acheived at impact for a good golf swing, in my humble opinion.

Check out the right hand drill and see what I mean. Greg, if I am not explaining this correctly, I hope you will intervene. It's very important for me to understand this correctly.

Chessbum....

[GoNavy]

Re: Straight left arm?

My apologies, probably should have explain that better. You are assuming the center point for this centrifuge force is the center of your body, it is not, it is your left shoulder. If done correctly your right hand and wrist have no choice but to be in that cupped position, because they simply lack the strenght to over power centrifuge force, which means the hands will not be controling the swing. If you ask Greg, I am sure he tell you he is not at any point purposely trying to keep his arm straight, it simple a byproduct of swinging as opposed to trying hit with your hands.

Here is a little test you might do, swing a club with your left arm only, it is very difficult to muscle it, notice how the swing always happens in the correct plane, and the correct path, almost impossible to come over the the top. Why, because you are swinging and using centrifuge force to motivate the club. In your regular swing the right hand should provide ONLY a supporting role in the golf swing. It add a very small percent of your power, but if you let it take over your swing, it well destroy almost all of your power.

Here is some more food for thought, and another reason that trying to physically force your hands , arms what ever into some position is useless, it need to happen naturally. If you talk to a biology teacher, look it up on the internet, you will find out it has been proven, that from the time your brain send a signal to your muscle to do anything, is about 1.2 secs. before it actually happens. From the top of the swing to impact happens is about .3 secs. so you are most diffinately not going to control anything during the swing. Reflex action occur at a much faster rate, generated from your spinal cord, this is the basis of muscle memory, and why swinging in balance with proper weight shift, correct grip, and using centrifuge force allows the swing to repeat because every thing is happening by reflex. Bad shots are the result of minor changes in setup or interfering with this process (trying to hit, rather then swing). In other words if you are out of balance, your body will do what ever it needs to do get back in balance, and it is going to change your swing in the process, you can try all you want, you will not be able stop it, because it is a reflex action. I have never seen a good player or professional that did not have good balance, and they all use centrifuge force to hit the ball.

[pnearn]

Re: Straight left arm?

Go Navy

Great post. Agree with you entirely. I think of the swing as a turn a pull and a turn, making very sure the weight stays on the insides of my feet. From there you have the stable lower body base you need to swing the club via centrifugal force. I start down by pulling with my left arm and bumping my hip simaltaneously, this is now automatic for me but it whats my brain wants to do to get the ball to the target and swing the club in a circle

The killer moves here though are 1. letting the arms move indepently of the body on the backswing and downswing and 2. Swaying on the backswing, where you let your lower body follow the away movement of your arms (from there you will reverse pivot and hang on your right side through impact). You must feel as though the right hip is being pulled behind you, rather than sideways. This is correct rotation but I used to confuse width with getting my whole body as far off the ball as I could. I now know that width is getting your hands and arms as far from my core as I can whilst keeping that connected turning motion and keeping my core (head, spine etc) centered over the ball

[Hannu]

Rotation and forces in it?

Pnearn,

You are writing something that I would like to understand:

The forces that are related to rotations in a golf swing and how to balance them.

In Karate Kid movie there was an examble of a kids toy. A stick that had two balls hanging from a string. When rotating the stick the balls would swing away from the stick.

Are you saying that our body is like that stick. The center of the rotation is left shoulder. And for balance we need to pull our body "grounch/bend?" to the opposite direction than our club is travelling?

From where do you get the feeling that your right hip is pulled backwards? Is it you left leg pushing? (This is something that I am comfused with any swing. Does your right leg push you to schift you weight or your left leg and hips pull you? Or is it both?)

Hannu - a handicap 47, but dropping it next season to 7:-)

[GoNavy]

Re: Straight left arm?

Hannu if you simply swing the club back into your swing, centrifuge force would cause your weight to move towards the target. Newton's law at work, equal and oposite reaction (the reverse pivot). This is why you move your weight to the right going back, to counteract this swinging motion and maintain balance. When you start back down you have to do the same thing only going forward, again to counteract the swinging forces of the forward swing, this transfers all that would be, reciprocal action, back to the club and your ball. Again you retain balance, the force of the swing through, pulls you to the finish and completely to your left side.

The problem comes when people overdo this, or they try to help this process by forcefully slamming their hands towards the ball, there is no amount of weight shift to counteract that, and it is much slower then simply allowing centrifuge to do it's job, hence, body tries to save itself from being flung backwards (Newton's law), things begin to brake down (wrist, hands, left arm), weight stays right, clubs is all over the place (because swing center has changed), and you hit a bad shot.

So to answer your question, yes it is a pulling action, but it must be done in balance. Forward swinging and the weight movement must compliment each other for centrifuge force to be maintained, as well as balance. Which why I say the feeling should be that of allowing body and arms and hands, to feel as if it is just going along for the ride and feel that outward pull of centrifuge force. This feeling is most diffinately not a hit, but a swing, slow acceleration if you like. This is also what keeps the left arm fairly straight throught out swing, until just after impact, then the right arm straightens.

[Hannu]

Re: Straight left arm?

http://koti.tnnet.fi/net73/rotation.jpg

Link is to frame from my swing at the impact moment. Red arrow down is where rotation forces are pulling. Red arrow up is the needed counter force to be in balance. (Also balance is shifting from left to right.)

1. My right leg is almost in air or has very little weight on it at the moment of impact. How can I pull with it or feel like a pull?

2. I can push with my right leg - to push my hips more back wards - to feel a pull from behind.

At the moment I feel like a pull just about the place were the upper arrow is.

I have had discussions about the angle of the hip - idea would be to push your putt back wards and use it as a counter weight? Maybe it's needed with a driver or if hitting the ball harder.

The image is from a swing that was maybe 60% effort.

Am I on the right track? Is this what you meant by centrifuge forces. (Of course impact is just on moment of the swing and rotation affects the hole movement.)

Thing to experiment!

What you ones address look or feel like if someone would pull from a club toward the ball?
How strong is the pulling force? (We did this kind of demonstration when trying to show a correct skiing position for a turn. A partner pulled from skiing poles so that the skier feels the centrifuge of the turn.)

Maybe the same thing would be good in golf? Pull from the club so feel the centrifuge and to feel how you adjust your position?

Hannu

[Started2k3]

Re: Straight left arm?

If you talk to a biology teacher, look it up on the internet, you will find out it has been proven, that from the time your brain send a signal to your muscle to do anything, is about 1.2 secs. before it actually happens.

I don't know why but stuff like this really bugs me.

Try to beat 1.2 seconds on this game, you will every time (unless you are asleep).

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/games/sheepshooting.html

This is testing your relfexes from your eyes-to-brain-to-finger.

[pnearn]

Re: Straight left arm?

Hannu

They key on the backswing is not to force your weight to shift on to the right side. This should happen purely naturally as your shoulders and hip rotate. Try and feel as if your right knee stays pointing inside your foot or your weight stays on the instep/big toe as you swing back. This ensures you turn not slide. Another is to have someone put a club on your right hip as you swing back, you should try to turn inside the club not bump against it

From this position you should feel centered at the top with your head feeling as if it hasnt moved, your arms wide and a lot of coil in your right side. If you are used to sliding and over rotation of the lower body you probably wont be able to get the club as far back as parallel unless you are flexible. This is right though

When you now swing down your weight will get onto to the left side far more easily as you turn back through. This time there will be a natural bump to the left as you start down getting your weight in front of the ball and allowing you to really compress it at impact. If you scoop the ball. dont take divots etc its because you hang back on your right side because you have slid rather than turned on the backswing (IMHO anyway )

Is that what you wanted to know?

[Hannu]

Slide??? - No it has about centrifuge

Pnearn,
I am quite sure that I don't have a "slide problem". My question was about the forces related to centrifuge.

(But your remark on letting the weight shift naturally from right to left was welcomed. I do think that the harder I push with my right leg, the harder I can hit the ball - but accuracy suffers. At the moment I am not hitting hard, just letting the swing happen.)

My question was about rotation and forces during the rotation. If my head does not move ( a lot) and my feet don't move. (Well, right foot rotates to it toes.) -> where do I get the counter force to balance the centrifuge - and what does it feel like?

Some say that they drop there hips (buttocks). I feel a pull just under my shoulder blade in backside. (So it is much higher than buttocks - but lower than shoulder - as a center for rotation.)

You wrote: "You must feel as though the right hip is being pulled behind you, rather than sideways." From where does this feeling come from? What pulls your RIGHT hip? My right leg has almost no weight on it, at the moment of impact. It is relaxed.

(I do understand that we all have our own ways of sensing our movements. Might not be something that can be copied. By knowing what others feel, I can try to listen to my own movements and notice if the feeling is similar with me.)

I think that this is good mental training - to try to imagine what a swing feels like - and even better practice when done with a club and actually swinging:-)

Hannu