Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

[keiko]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Thanks. I just have always found that a neutral up to two knuckles showing grip allows the hands and wrists to do their job. If you have a strong grip the wrist hinge will be more limited.
If i put my hands together on the club with the back of the left hand facing the target and the back of my right hand facing the opposite direction, I can freely hinge and release with no impediments.

Hi Keiko

No worries about disagreeing or differing views. Its all good mate. At the end of the day, if we all thought the same way, we wouldn't be learning anything new or teaching others.

In fact you guys have single handedly rescued my game!

thanks

Mahbo

[SandCC]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Thanks. I just have always found that a neutral up to two knuckles showing grip allows the hands and wrists to do their job. If you have a strong grip the wrist hinge will be more limited.
If i put my hands together on the club with the back of the left hand facing the target and the back of my right hand facing the opposite direction, I can freely hinge and release with no impediments.

My thanks to both Brian and Keiko for compelling viewpoints on the grip. Interesting take on a post that originated in 2006!! I wish Broadus was here to comment on his original post. This weekend I ventured the range to try out both philosophies. The one that feels best in my hands is "strong" and I like the feel of "little to no" wrist rotation through impact. Probably because I have terrible timing! With most of my irons, I get a nice draw (when I hit it right!) and it feels crisp and well compressed. With the woods particularly off the tee I feel I have to move more "out" on an inside-out path to keep the face from shutting down on me and causing a gnarly snap hook. Unfortunately, I will occasionally block it left (I'm a lefty) or even slice it a bit. This (ala Keikeo) is where I made an attempt at weaking my grip. So awkward! But when I finally (through a series of parictice swing) found some comfortability (it was in the wrist hinge/rotation going back) it actually allowed me to take a swing path that was more familiar as if I were using my irons although I had to work more on timing. The result was straighter shots w/out weird feet positons to compensate for a clear flaw. So......I'm grateful to have something to build on in either case and I believe that the advice is sound from Brian AND Keiko depending on your style, comfortability and your willingness to be open and recognize when one or the other may help straighten it out. Thank fellas...

[BrianW]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

My thanks to both Brian and Keiko for compelling viewpoints on the grip. Interesting take on a post that originated in 2006!! I wish Broadus was here to comment on his original post. This weekend I ventured the range to try out both philosophies. The one that feels best in my hands is "strong" and I like the feel of "little to no" wrist rotation through impact. Probably because I have terrible timing! With most of my irons, I get a nice draw (when I hit it right!) and it feels crisp and well compressed. With the woods particularly off the tee I feel I have to move more "out" on an inside-out path to keep the face from shutting down on me and causing a gnarly snap hook. Unfortunately, I will occasionally block it left (I'm a lefty) or even slice it a bit. This (ala Keikeo) is where I made an attempt at weaking my grip. So awkward! But when I finally (through a series of parictice swing) found some comfortability (it was in the wrist hinge/rotation going back) it actually allowed me to take a swing path that was more familiar as if I were using my irons although I had to work more on timing. The result was straighter shots w/out weird feet positons to compensate for a clear flaw. So......I'm grateful to have something to build on in either case and I believe that the advice is sound from Brian AND Keiko depending on your style, comfortability and your willingness to be open and recognize when one or the other may help straighten it out. Thank fellas...

Nice reply.

I would just add finally that I like to use a stronger grip with irons and a more neutral grip for my Driver and 3 Wood. The longer woods square up with less shaft lead so do not require a stronger grip.

As I mentioned some golfers can square the clubface nicely through rotation of the arms and wrists and I think Keiko does this well. Some find it difficult and should try a stronger grip.

[keiko]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Brian,
Appreciate your post(s) very much.
My only point was to allege that a neutral grip seems to free up the hands and wrists which in turn free up the arms and shoulders. Hitters seem to prefer a strong grip while swingers seem to prefer neutral. Of course not always as there are no absolutes.
If one takes a 7 iron in the hands with a neutral grip and light grip pressure and just swings back and forth without a ball, one can notice the whipping action that takes place because the hands, wrists, etc. are activating. Do the same thing with a strong grip and there is a noticeable difference.
I also strongly advocate what works best for the individual but just wanted to explain why "I" think neutral works well "assuming" the individual can swing without tension. Some folks just can't and others like the strong grip because it is what they have always used and therefore it is comfortable for them. There is alot to be said for comfort in this game.
For myself and others who use the neutral grip, we have found that a strong grip has us hitting hooks and blocks because we release too much with that grip.
Hope this makes sense.

Nice reply.

I would just add finally that I like to use a stronger grip with irons and a more neutral grip for my Driver and 3 Wood. The longer woods square up with less shaft lead so do not require a stronger grip.

As I mentioned some golfers can square the clubface nicely through rotation of the arms and wrists and I think Keiko does this well. Some find it difficult and should try a stronger grip.

[mahbo]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Thanks Keiko, Brian and Co for all your points. Ok, agreed, different grips and different forms of manipulation can still create the same result, no argument there.

Please see below picture. How important is it then do you guys feel there is a need to have the club face and back plam of left hand parallel? even though first picture is not parallel and best example!

Also the first picture the guy is fairly closed at the top, and with tiger wood's he is more neutral. Would you guys agree that as best we can we should all try to get out club face to look similar to tiger's? And the motivation to be as neutral as possible is, If not (ie if our club face is to open or closed- due to 'non-neutral' grip) we will have to resort to our compesations and manipulations to hit a good shot? what are your thoughts?

My final question is. If it is the desired goal to have your club face appear neutral at the top like tigers.....if you aren't neutral, can is be only blamed on two things a) your grip b) your wrist being either too bowed (for closed) or too arched(for open)

sorry for so much technical guys, but evry time i try and get into this with my mates, they tune out!

thanks
mahbo

[BrianW]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

I would look at the issue slightly differently. What is most important is that you can square the clubface at impact.

Taking us back to the video I posted from Shawn Clements he explained that if the hands lead the clubface into impact creating 'Precious Lag' then the clubface will be forced into a more open position than it was at address, this is a physical symptom of holding lag in the downswing. In this case you cannot return the clubface to the same state as you addressed the ball with a neutral grip, you will need to manipulate the face closed by either pulling your shoulders round more which can create poor impact or you must rotate the clubface closed with your arms and wrists which require good timing. Shawn explains that a stronger grip (and you will need to experiment with how strong) will close the face square when lag is retained.

I understand what you are saying Keiko and do not disagree with your stance on the subject. My main point is that I would estimate from my own observations that most people playing golf have problems closing the clubface and are prone to cutting across the ball creating pushes and weak slices, for every hooker of the ball there is probably 100 slicers.

These people seem to have problems with bringing the clubface back square even when they understand that they are not closing the clubface. My advice to these people would be to do something different if you want a different result, OK they can try using a neutral grip and swing loose, if that does not work then try progressively strengthening your grip, try a stronger grip with short to medium clubs and a neutral grip with longer clubs.

Some of the great tour players use stronger grips for this same reason and these people are the 'creme de la creme' of the game.

Here are two examples I spoke of:

Look at Ernie he has neutral grip, see how much he rotates his forearms through impact to square the face.

Now look at Zach Johnson and how he takes a strong grip and does not use forearm rotation to square the face:

[release]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

I would not use a different grip for irons and woods, too much variables involved in changing the grip back and forth.

Two things might have happened; (1) with the progression of playing more golf, your need for a stronger grip had turned into more suitable for a less strong and more neutral grip ( as most good players use a more neutral grip than a very strong grip, not to say we won't see a stronger grip on the Tour but very few and in between ). Especially your trailing hand position.
(2) With today's light weight head and super light weight shaft and now the light weight grip in search for a faster swing speed, you might need a stronger flex in your longer clubs.

I'd suggest to demo a stiffer flex in your long clubs.

[SandCC]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Great arguments on both sides. I've learned a lot about how the grip affects the club face moving into impact. Thanks for that. I suppose that comfort is likely to win out for the masses. For some, changing their grip may be the beginning of some really great things, and for others a source of major discomfort. Although I'm most comforatble with a stronger grip at the moment, I may dedicate a portion of my practice sessions to gaining some comfortability with a neutral grip. At worse it will become NOT completely foreign and I may find enough comfortability in between grips to actually shape more shots. Who knows? Could be great! Thanks again fellas.

A quick note about Shawn Clements (since Brian posted one of his videos): I really like his approach to "feeling" the golf swing and have found his instruction through his YouTube videos to be extremely helpful. He uses a lot of practical analogies to help visualize and feel what he's trying to get across. Kinda holistic really....I like it!

[BrianW]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Great arguments on both sides. I've learned a lot about how the grip affects the club face moving into impact. Thanks for that. I suppose that comfort is likely to win out for the masses. For some, changing their grip may be the beginning of some really great things, and for others a source of major discomfort. Although I'm most comforatble with a stronger grip at the moment, I may dedicate a portion of my practice sessions to gaining some comfortability with a neutral grip. At worse it will become NOT completely foreign and I may find enough comfortability in between grips to actually shape more shots. Who knows? Could be great! Thanks again fellas.

A quick note about Shawn Clements (since Brian posted one of his videos): I really like his approach to "feeling" the golf swing and have found his instruction through his YouTube videos to be extremely helpful. He uses a lot of practical analogies to help visualize and feel what he's trying to get across. Kinda holistic really....I like it!

Shawn Clements has some great videos on the golf swing.

I would suggest that the grip and swing does not have to feel 'comfortable' to be right. Many flaws in the golf swing feel comfortable.

[BrianW]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

I would not use a different grip for irons and woods, too much variables involved in changing the grip back and forth.

People need to do what is necessary to overcome golfing problems as they all have their own physical and physiological limitations. If they hit irons well with a stronger grip but hook woods then they must make an adjustment or keep hooking.

As I have pointed out previously, most golfers hit the ball with an open clubface and do it all their golfing lives. Most of these people will never develop a text book swing so should make some small changes that will improve their ball flight and make golf more enjoyable.

[mahbo]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Shawn Clements has some great videos on the golf swing.

I would suggest that the grip and swing does not have to feel 'comfortable' to be right. Many flaws in the golf swing feel comfortable.

Brian, no words are truer!

I used to have a weak grip. I got a lesson, and the coach said, strengthen your grip. However when I did it, I was facing that issue Keiko was talking about! ie my wrists not feeling free, and was having trouble rolling my forearms vis-a-vis the Ernie Swing posted.

But as Brian says, what feels natural make be downright wrong! When I started reading the posts about the different types of releases, and essentially realizing you can release with your body without needing to roll your wrist.....it confirmed to me to stick with my changes.

if anything, there were times when I consciously tried to roll my wrist, instead of just swinging it with "unbridalled abandon"...and what I found was trying to conscioulsy roll my wrist at types stiffened up my swing and resulted in me gripping the club too tightly, and slicing it.

You know that feeling when you hit two balls in the water, and you are now hitting your fifth shot, and you just wind up, and hit it in anger. I have found that uninhibited swing has helped me more with hitting a good ball, as opposed to thinking too much!


mahbo

[keiko]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Mahbo, you have heard, "paralysis by analysis" no doubt. This is when we over think the swing etc. and end up with nothing but a ball of tension at every shot.
Keeping it loose is the key. As you gain more confidence, it becomes second nature to just allow your swing to happen.

Brian, no words are truer!

I used to have a weak grip. I got a lesson, and the coach said, strengthen your grip. However when I did it, I was facing that issue Keiko was talking about! ie my wrists not feeling free, and was having trouble rolling my forearms vis-a-vis the Ernie Swing posted.

But as Brian says, what feels natural make be downright wrong! When I started reading the posts about the different types of releases, and essentially realizing you can release with your body without needing to roll your wrist.....it confirmed to me to stick with my changes.

if anything, there were times when I consciously tried to roll my wrist, instead of just swinging it with "unbridalled abandon"...and what I found was trying to conscioulsy roll my wrist at types stiffened up my swing and resulted in me gripping the club too tightly, and slicing it.

You know that feeling when you hit two balls in the water, and you are now hitting your fifth shot, and you just wind up, and hit it in anger. I have found that uninhibited swing has helped me more with hitting a good ball, as opposed to thinking too much!


mahbo

[SandCC]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Shawn Clements has some great videos on the golf swing.

I would suggest that the grip and swing does not have to feel 'comfortable' to be right. Many flaws in the golf swing feel comfortable.

OK...just trying to say thanks.

[jrcamping]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Wow.....I'm new here and 4 years after your post I can say that THIS is EXACTLY what is going on with my swing today. If you're still posting here, can you tell me what you've learned over the past few years to help you correct or balance this anomoly? I have a grip like yours as described in another of your posts. After squaring the face at address, it's 3.5-4 knuckles. I can hit SW - 5 Iron with a lot of compression. I'm not quite there but close with the 3-4 irons. Teed up with a driver? Duck hook city with the same grip! I can weaken the grip slightly enough to complete the swing and it does straighten out some, but I feel soooo robbed of power and balance without that strong grip. I've tried moving the ball into various different positions and just haven't found a good combo for power and accuracy. Any tips?

Sometimes if you have the ball too far forward since its a longer club. And you using that stronger grip you could be winding back possibly reverse pivoting.

Also you could be starting your down swing too soon, meaning uncocking your wrist to quickly, so for the club to stay within your swing your shaft is fully released before it reaches the bottom of your swing. Possible causes of this can be swinging to hard and coming over the top.

Your duck hooks on your driver can be a cause of all those po0ssible things above. This would to include your grip position.

Suggest try to focus where your fulll swing is on your driver or possibly your favorite club you hit. See what position that is and try to immulate it with your full swing on your driver. Try not unloading on the ball too soon.

Here are some tips that could help. It is hard to see unless actually looking at the swing but this will help you possibly.

[SandCC]

Re: Strong grip w/irons; weaker grip with woods

Sometimes if you have the ball too far forward since its a longer club. And you using that stronger grip you could be winding back possibly reverse pivoting.

Also you could be starting your down swing too soon, meaning uncocking your wrist to quickly, so for the club to stay within your swing your shaft is fully released before it reaches the bottom of your swing. Possible causes of this can be swinging to hard and coming over the top.

Your duck hooks on your driver can be a cause of all those po0ssible things above. This would to include your grip position.

Suggest try to focus where your fulll swing is on your driver or possibly your favorite club you hit. See what position that is and try to immulate it with your full swing on your driver. Try not unloading on the ball too soon.

Here are some tips that could help. It is hard to see unless actually looking at the swing but this will help you possibly.

Thank you JR

As a matter of fact, I do have a tendency to swing harder than I'd like. I'm working on tempo but admittedly still have a ways to go in leveling that out. I don't feel as if I'm coming over the top (that doesn't mean I'm not) but I do feel like the clubface is closing in on me at or before impact with my preferred grip, thus my attempt to adjust toward a neutral grip to compensate. Simply stated...I have a lot of work to do, and I appreciate all the help here. I'm always anxious to get out there and try different techniques/drills that work for a variety of people and take from that what I can benefit from. I will try what you suggest with a fave club. Thanks for your insight.