Question for RHD advocates

[pnearn]

The good ol' right hand drill. Been trying to show it (or a variant of it) to a playing partner of mine who is really struggling with his game. He looks really armsy and is clearly casting/swatting on the downswing

What Im trying to get him to do is take half swings where his wrists are cocked. These are 1PS half swings BTW. From there im asking him to 'feel' as if he holds this angle in his wrists with as light a grip as he can manage and then simply turn his chest/shoulders to pull the hands through impact and have CF force release the angle and square the clubface when the hands pass in front of the ball. He is obviously finding this weird ( as we all did when we first learnt it ) esp. being so open at impact but he keeps pushing the ball right. Im not sure if this is because he's rotating too slowly or not 'around' enough

I want to be careful not to tell him the wrong thing (ive suggested he goes to a pro but he's out of work at the moment and wants to work a few things out with some advice) so any ideas ? He seems to be struggling with my description of this and the printed RHD and video on Gregs excellent site. Are there any other good drills, feelings etc that could help him learn this? Im finding to hard to describe how I feel it to him but Im sure this will put him on thre right track

[GregJWillis]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

If he is still pushing right, he is not release his "cocked" hands enough into impact. The cupped position is causing his hands to be tight (probably). You telling him to be light on the grip is one thing, but allowing his wrists to hinge freely up/dn is another.

Have him do a waggle before he takes the club back. This waggle is up/down with the wrists at setup. Pop the ground a couple of times. Then take the RHD swings. This waggle will loosen up the wrists and enstill the simple action prior to the swing.

What I didn't see in your post if the hips rotate through first, you only mentioned the chest and shoulders. Remember the hips have to be just as "open" to the target as the shoulders, and before the shoulders. This might also be a reason for the push.

[pnearn]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Tks Greg

He was having real trouble doing a 1PS takeway where the left bicep stays tight to the left pec so I had him pushing the club back at a 45 degree angle low and slow with his left hand which then cupped his right wrist. I told him not to delibrately cock the wrists, the turn would do that on its own but I wonder if he is over-doing the wrist cock rather than cup making it hard for him to release it?

Again he said the flat left wrist/cupped right poistion felt odd but thats what I was trying to get him to hold on to when he rotated. Because this is 1PS the takeaway is a little deeper and more behind but still trying to keep the clubhead in front of the hands as he turns

Good point about the hips. I'll try and have him use them more tomorrow. The non use of hips stems from my personal preference of turning the chest/stomach rather than the hips because of my tendency to slide left but of course he may be different

BTW after half of hour of half swings with a PW he was hitting the ball real solid, learning to use the core to swing the club. I think the light went on in terms of the idea but he was struggling to do it with anything lower than a 7i

[pnearn]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

I think wevw now sorted why the face was open and probably the root cause of his slice. Because taking the club with his hands is so ingrained he is fanning the face open on the takeaway and rolling his left forearm such that the back of his hand faces the sky halfway back. In slow motion he wasnt doing this but when he tried a full speed half swing he did it every time as we saw on the digital camera

Worked for a while on setup with the elbows pointing to the hips and having him make the connected turn feeling as if the clubface stayed looking at the ball for as long as possible. Got him into a mich better position halfway back where his elbows were pointing to the ground and the back of the left hand now facing more forward. Gave him more width and the butt of the club is now pointing right at the ball. From there when we did the right hand drill getting him to have passive hands and just turn his core through the ball, he was hitting it lovely. The passive hands thing is going to take some work for him but he could see and feel how well and effortless he was striking the ball using the body turn

Just goes to show, a lot of problems are setup and/or takeaway related

[RandomHero1090]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

I have always been a big fan of the "pump drill." Usually you should swing back to a normal full backswing, but in this case, I think I would try a three quarters swing.

Have him swing back and then correctly start his downswing and STOP at the halfway down point. From there, make sure he is in position to come from the inside. Have him "pump" a couple times, lets say 4 times, down towards the ball BUT NOT RELEASING his wrists whatsoever. On the 5th time he should take a slighly bigger "pump" and aggressively turn his chest through.

Make sure to reinforce the cupped position you have been stressing.

I think this is the hardest thing to learn. Releasing the club with your left side OR releasing the club with the body. This requires an inside approach and that natural lag or cupped right wrist that all pros have. The "sexy" swing as I like to call it

BTW, again, love the RHD. I never was quite sure what everyone meant around here by the term cupped, when applying to the right wrist. Just goes to show that people can think of things in different ways and achieve the same result.

[pnearn]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Greg..question re: forearm rotation and the RHD

Is it possible/advisable to actively try and rotate the forearms through impact in an effort to draw the ball? I played last night and was cutting everything so decided to aim a little right, pump down (as Random suggested) from the top with a move left to drop inside and then turned the torso and aggressively rotated the forearms.

New move so some timing issues (a few hooks) but when I got it on I was hitting high long draws. Im guessing that as long as its the forearms that rotate and not the wrists (so youre not swatting and losing the wrist angles) this is ok? I could also feel my right hand really hanging post impact a la Phil/Vijay etc so I assume this is a move those guys must make? I also seemed to find this move a lot easier with a late set of the wrists in the BS?

[GregJWillis]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Yes, this is fine. The forarm rotation is essential in the swing, and having it rotated through is apart of the shoulders also rotating through. Not rotating the shoulders and just the forarms is a mistake for hooks. Not rotating the forarms and just the shoulders is a slice, together is the straight shot.

[pnearn]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Yes, this is fine. The forarm rotation is essential in the swing, and having it rotated through is apart of the shoulders also rotating through. Not rotating the shoulders and just the forarms is a mistake for hooks. Not rotating the forarms and just the shoulders is a slice, together is the straight shot.

Greg, did some more work with my "student" tonight esp on forearm rotation and I think i ended up being the student myself. I love learning more about my swing and as always Id like to run this past you

He asked what was the difference between the hand swat and forearm rotation and this got me thinking. I flimed his old swing and you could see the flip/swat kind of like the bad finish jpeg attached. When he filmed mine you could see the forearm rotation more like the good one also attached

When I then had him making half swings back through thinking of turning the core and the forearms together he hit a few hooks to start but then started drawing the ball and making that lovely sound of compression. When we did some practice swings turning the club upside down you could hear MUCH more of a swish through impact

This got me thinking. Ive worked hard on taking my hands and arms out of the swing, but now I *think* all i may really have done is "educate" my hands. Im still using the forearms but im rotating them, rather than using them to pull or push. Clearly where ive made many thousands of practcie swings to dial this in this move must be so ingrained I dont 'feel' it. All I feel is the weight shift and shoulder turn

Because asking my pal just to turn his shoulders, his forearms werent rotating leaving the clubface open and a weak slice. When we worked on the feeling of synchronsing both together (rotating the left shoulder and left forearm) he seemed to pick it up. Now he is trying to make sure he leaves his wrists and hands soft and feels the forearms turn over rather than swat the wrists and he's got some visual and result checkpoints to help him see that. His backswing looks good anyway and he does a good job of turning the club in front of his body and getting the wrists in the right places

Are we on the right lines here? Im assuming that by keeping the wrists and hand soft you maintain the cup in the right wrist into impact as the shoulder and forearm rotation square the clubface?

Facinating stuff this BTW. My wife thinks ive got a new boyfriend!!!

[golfonenemesis]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

At the risk of apparently p...ng everyone off on this site, I am not an advocate of the RHD. Its just another trick which is quickly forgotten under pressure.
Unless one changes the bad habits by learning the concept of the golf swing, no amount of drills, tricks, aids, or other short cuts will work.
I guess having said my piece, I will be doomed to never participate again on this site but thats MHO after 40 years of playing and having been a 1 hdcp. for the past 3 years.
Thanks everyone, this is probably where I take my exit

[kbp]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Now I’m curious. Which of the concepts in the RHD do you disagree with? I thought the point of the RHD WAS to begin to change bad habits.

[golfonenemesis]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Drills are fine for the range but to take them to the course requires another whole range(pardon the pun) of skills. Therefore, and not withstanding the merits of drills, one must learn to think not do.
Thinking skills are far more transferrable since they involve the mind. Physical drills are depnding on the body which is dumb and at times nonresponsive.
One must learn with the mind what one must do and committ that to memory then transfer this to directing the body to do it.
To just do drills over and over won't help one on the course. One must understand the swing concept, incorporate it into one's movements, and, most importantly of all, deliver the goods when called upon to do so.
There is an old saying, practice makes permament. I must add to this that while practice hones one at the range, the thinking man(or woman)on the course must understand the delivery when called upon to do so.
I can add examples of mental preparation but that's another litany better saved for another reply.

[Mr_Change]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Don't know if this will work, but because you are a lefty, get them to mirror you.

[kbp]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Drills are fine for the range but to take them to the course requires another whole range(pardon the pun) of skills. Therefore, and not withstanding the merits of drills, one must learn to think not do.
Thinking skills are far more transferrable since they involve the mind. Physical drills are depnding on the body which is dumb and at times nonresponsive.
One must learn with the mind what one must do and committ that to memory then transfer this to directing the body to do it.
To just do drills over and over won't help one on the course. One must understand the swing concept, incorporate it into one's movements, and, most importantly of all, deliver the goods when called upon to do so.
There is an old saying, practice makes permament. I must add to this that while practice hones one at the range, the thinking man(or woman)on the course must understand the delivery when called upon to do so.
I can add examples of mental preparation but that's another litany better saved for another reply.

I don’t think that "the drill" itself is as important as the concept it illustrates. I doubt many people have spent endless hours on the range strictly doing just "the drill" in hopes of ingraining it. I know I haven’t. I think most people are attempting to incorporate the concepts into their swing in much the way you are advocating. I think around here, RHD is sometimes used as shorthand for the ideas behind the drill, not so much the actual drill. Just my thoughts.

[pnearn]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Well I can put this in context for what it achieved for my mate on the range

It showed him visually and through feel how the wrists should move through impact. Clearly on its own this isnt a panacea for the downswing. As we found we had to combibe shoulder and forearm rotation with the RHD to get him to feel through impact what he should be doing

He now has something to fall back if his shot patter starts leakinh short and right again

I asbolustely agree with you about drills and rounds. Drills are for practice time, You then have to trust what you have when you play even if maybe you know you still have work to do. Thats fair enough. However in practice/range time the RHD has both in this instance and ( seemingly) many others helped folks feel a good impact position with their hands

[RandomHero1090]

Re: Question for RHD advocates

Drills "teach" the mind what is the right thing to do. The RHD shows the mind what the hands and wrists should look like at impact. If you are never shown nor practice (drill) the correct way to do something, you can never do it on your own. Unless you are the creator...

golfonenemesis, do you waggle? If you do, why? I do it for 2 reasons....1st to relax, and 2nd to show myself the correct way to start my swing. In a way, the waggle is a drill.